Denzil Eden - Smarty.ai

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Hey.

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Hi.

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How you doing?

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Good.

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How's it going?

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Good.

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Well, yeah.

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I'm excited to dive in,

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especially with your

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background.

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I think, just to give you a

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And just to give you a little

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little context, you know,

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context, you know, right in

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I'm in month five of

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setting up Stacklist as a

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startup, and I love the idea

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of zero to one.

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I think what's interesting is

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the path between zero and one

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is the sort of like, okay,

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great.

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What's my benchmark that I

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feel like I'm in a good place?

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I mean, obviously, there's

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always fundraising, and

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there's always growing, and

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there's always challenges, but

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sort of when that period

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happens, when you're like,

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okay, I can take a breath for

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a minute.

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I see where things are going.

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This feels stable enough that

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I'm not going to fall off a

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cliff any time soon.

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And so really, it's about

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diving into sort of the early,

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you know, I'd love to hear

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your background.

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It's such interesting things

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that I found in your journey,

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but also really early Smarty,

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sort of from idea inception,

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you know, and moving forward.

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So that sounds good.

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Amazing.

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I agree.

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Zero to one is fascinating.

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It's so different for

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everyone.

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And I'm excited to dive in.

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I've been thinking a lot about

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that as well.

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So I think what's interesting,

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speaking of Smarty, I read

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somewhere that you started

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coding when you were eight.

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I did.

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That's amazing.

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Tell me about that.

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Are we already in the podcast?

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Yeah.

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We're diving in.

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Okay.

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Perfect.

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Yeah.

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I was lucky enough to go to a

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school where they taught Logo

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when I was in third grade.

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And Logo is like programming

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language for kids.

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It has a little turtle.

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And you teach it to like move

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in puzzles or make a

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snowflake.

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And I fell in love instantly.

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I knew it was different than

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like other kids in my class

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because I was the one that was

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looking forward

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to that class

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like wait to like, go

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and like code and more things.

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And that passion just like

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started really early.

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And I remember coming home and

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being like, I think I want to

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be a software engineer.

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I think this is like really

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cool.

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That's amazing.

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I love that.

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And what, even at that point,

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even being young, is it,

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sort of without being able to

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describe it?

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I'm sure at that age, is it

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Yeah.

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I'm sure at that age, is it

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kind of like you felt like

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you could see The Matrix

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a little bit,

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or you could see sort of like,

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what was it

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that sort of attracted

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you to the ability to,

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to sort of create

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and, and develop?

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It's a really great question.

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And now that I think back on

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it, I think it's really the

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logic.

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Like, it was so clear.

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Like, if you tell the turtle

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to do this, then it will do that.

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And it's like a puzzle too.

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It's like, okay, I'm

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trying to make this happen.

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And these are the constraints

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that I'm working in.

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What can I do?

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I think I just loved

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figuring that out

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and deducing like,

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this is the algorithm

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or this is the process.

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And every time I learn

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something new like,

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oh, this is a for loop

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or this is how recursion works,

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I was like,

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oh wow, look at all these cool

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things that you can do.

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but just like

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a few lines of text.

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Yeah.

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Amazing.

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I remember a similar period

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when, mine was a little bit

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later, but it was like 14 or

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15.

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I bought a laptop from a kid

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down the street, and it was an

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8086 luggable, like a green

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screen that was like this big,

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and two five-and-a-fourth

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floppies, and just like

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messing with it and getting it

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to do stuff.

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And then I remember, fast

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forward a little bit later,

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about reading email on like a

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bulletin board service, and

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this idea that you could just

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like send a message to someone

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across the world, and they

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would get it instantly.

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I remember coming down and

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telling my mom this, like,

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there's this thing, you can

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write a message, and it goes

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all the way across the world,

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and it's like instant, and

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it's free, and that they can

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write you back.

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And my mom was like, that

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sounds great.

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Like, sit down for dinner.

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I know.

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I think that- And then fast

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forward like a bunch of years

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later, where she's like, can

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you help me figure out my

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email?

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Like, I was so confused.

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Totally.

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I feel like there was a period

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where people didn't realize

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like how big of a deal it was,

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like the internet, and this

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just instant communication.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Amazing.

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Well, I love your, like, I

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look through your journey

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coming through, and you know,

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TLDR, like, program manager

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intern at Microsoft.

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That's amazing.

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Like, how did you get that

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sort of out of the gate?

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Yeah.

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So, being a program manager at

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Microsoft is the same as being

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in product, like, at any

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anywhere else.

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They just call it a program

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manager.

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And I got that internship.

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my sophomore year in college,

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which was at the time like a

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really big deal for me.

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I remember going to a career

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fair and just talking up the

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recruiters about things that I

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was passionate about and what

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I was working on.

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And it really made a

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difference.

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I'm pretty sure that's why I

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got selected to like even

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interview for the internship.

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And that was it was my first

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time really interviewing for a

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job.

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I came into college still semi

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thinking like maybe biotech

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was where I wanted to go or

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maybe something else.

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Like I wasn't sure exactly

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what I wanted to do.

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And that internship at

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Microsoft really like open the

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open my eyes to like what's

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possible in tech and what are

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you building.

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And that was my first real

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experience working at a

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corporate company, having like

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nine to five hours, having

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like a manager and really just

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both my strategic and creative

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skills.

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And like developing those

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product sense while also kind

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of being very technical at the

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same time.

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And so it was an amazing

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experience.

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I really loved it.

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But when I was in college, I

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was really confused about what

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I wanted to do next or what I

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wanted to do in my career.

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And so I didn't even though I

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got a return offer, I didn't

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end up going back to

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Microsoft.

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I ended up trying like a law

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internship and a finance

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internship and so many things

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like I was very like open to

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the possibilities of the

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world.

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Is that a bit of how your

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personality is when you think

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about like, do you dive deep

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on one thing or do you like

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exploring lots of different

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things outside of career, just

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how you kind of learn and

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explore?

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I think I'm more of a

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generalist, which is so funny

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because right now I think

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there's been a lot of pushback

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around like with generative AI

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and with AI in general, like

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is there a place for

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generalists in the world?

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And there's been a lot of

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pushback on the other side

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being like, well, actually,

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this is the time for

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generalists to really thrive

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because there's so much you

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need to apply from different

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areas to make any one industry

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succeed.

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And I think that being a

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generalist is probably really

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great for founder CEOs

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specifically because you have

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to be consuming all of the

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fire hose of knowledge that's

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out there and trying to make

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sense of it and trying to

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productize it and systemize it

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in a way that matters to your

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industry, to your niche.

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And I would definitely say I'm

294
00:07:16,416 --> 00:07:16,875
a generalist.

295
00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:18,583
I like to dabble in a lot of

296
00:07:18,583 --> 00:07:19,250
different things.

297
00:07:19,708 --> 00:07:21,000
As I said, like I tried out a

298
00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:21,833
lot of different careers

299
00:07:21,833 --> 00:07:22,458
because I have a lot of

300
00:07:22,458 --> 00:07:24,958
passions and curiosities and I

301
00:07:24,958 --> 00:07:26,083
can go deep when it's

302
00:07:26,083 --> 00:07:27,708
necessary, but I prefer things

303
00:07:27,708 --> 00:07:28,916
that really require more of

304
00:07:28,916 --> 00:07:29,958
that out of box thinking.

305
00:07:30,250 --> 00:07:31,375
Yeah, no, I agree.

306
00:07:31,625 --> 00:07:34,166
I love being a general, hyper

307
00:07:34,166 --> 00:07:34,708
generalist.

308
00:07:34,750 --> 00:07:35,750
I love trying everything.

309
00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:37,166
Even as a kid, I was like,

310
00:07:37,583 --> 00:07:38,458
people say, what do you want

311
00:07:38,458 --> 00:07:39,083
to be when you grow up?

312
00:07:39,083 --> 00:07:39,875
And I'm like, I want to be a

313
00:07:39,875 --> 00:07:42,250
detective and an inventor and

314
00:07:42,250 --> 00:07:42,958
a sniper.

315
00:07:43,416 --> 00:07:45,250
I just started listing off all

316
00:07:45,250 --> 00:07:46,791
these things because I just

317
00:07:46,791 --> 00:07:48,250
wanted many lives.

318
00:07:48,500 --> 00:07:48,916
And I think what's

319
00:07:48,916 --> 00:07:50,041
interesting, to your point,

320
00:07:50,541 --> 00:07:51,791
while I know there was

321
00:07:51,791 --> 00:07:52,833
definitely a period where it

322
00:07:52,833 --> 00:07:53,708
was like, you can't be a

323
00:07:53,708 --> 00:07:54,125
generalist.

324
00:07:54,166 --> 00:07:55,083
No one's going to want that.

325
00:07:55,208 --> 00:07:56,250
Everyone wants specialists.

326
00:07:56,375 --> 00:07:57,166
You've got to go deep on

327
00:07:57,166 --> 00:07:57,416
something.

328
00:07:57,708 --> 00:07:58,625
But what I think is

329
00:07:58,625 --> 00:08:00,958
interesting is that generalist

330
00:08:00,958 --> 00:08:02,500
kind of lifestyle and learning

331
00:08:02,500 --> 00:08:03,833
mindset sets you up for

332
00:08:03,833 --> 00:08:05,708
founder and especially CEO,

333
00:08:06,375 --> 00:08:08,125
especially early on, to be

334
00:08:08,125 --> 00:08:09,250
able to like, I can jump in

335
00:08:09,250 --> 00:08:10,166
Figma and do something.

336
00:08:10,291 --> 00:08:12,041
And I can jump in and code

337
00:08:12,041 --> 00:08:12,333
something.

338
00:08:12,458 --> 00:08:13,458
And I can also talk marketing.

339
00:08:13,625 --> 00:08:15,208
And I can also run social for

340
00:08:15,208 --> 00:08:16,916
a little bit versus needing

341
00:08:16,916 --> 00:08:18,416
help in all of those different

342
00:08:18,416 --> 00:08:18,791
areas.

343
00:08:19,208 --> 00:08:20,125
I think that's exactly it.

344
00:08:20,125 --> 00:08:21,083
Like as a founder

345
00:08:21,083 --> 00:08:22,125
and especially as CEO,

346
00:08:22,125 --> 00:08:23,791
you really and I,

347
00:08:23,791 --> 00:08:25,208
At a zero to one at the zero

348
00:08:25,208 --> 00:08:26,291
stage, you have to do

349
00:08:26,291 --> 00:08:27,083
everything.

350
00:08:27,333 --> 00:08:28,583
Sometimes you're the only one

351
00:08:28,583 --> 00:08:29,541
on the team.

352
00:08:29,875 --> 00:08:32,375
So you have to be the one to

353
00:08:32,375 --> 00:08:33,750
try something first before you

354
00:08:33,750 --> 00:08:34,583
can hire for it.

355
00:08:34,833 --> 00:08:35,958
And I think that's like a

356
00:08:35,958 --> 00:08:37,208
piece of advice that a lot of

357
00:08:37,208 --> 00:08:39,083
founders kind of use as a

358
00:08:39,083 --> 00:08:39,416
pitfall.

359
00:08:39,583 --> 00:08:40,500
Like they start outsourcing

360
00:08:40,500 --> 00:08:41,708
too early or they start hiring

361
00:08:41,708 --> 00:08:42,208
too early.

362
00:08:42,375 --> 00:08:43,625
And really, unless you do it

363
00:08:43,625 --> 00:08:44,666
yourself, you'll never know

364
00:08:44,666 --> 00:08:46,291
who you should hire.

365
00:08:46,750 --> 00:08:46,916
Right.

366
00:08:47,291 --> 00:08:49,375
Now, what's so amazing, you

367
00:08:49,375 --> 00:08:51,958
also like professor, adjunct

368
00:08:51,958 --> 00:08:53,125
professor, like going from the

369
00:08:53,125 --> 00:08:53,958
Microsoft intern.

370
00:08:54,666 --> 00:08:55,458
Obviously, there was a period

371
00:08:55,458 --> 00:08:55,958
there at J.K.

372
00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:56,208
Morgan.

373
00:08:56,333 --> 00:08:58,125
But like going, how did it –

374
00:08:58,125 --> 00:08:59,125
what was the jump to

375
00:08:59,125 --> 00:08:59,583
professor?

376
00:08:59,875 --> 00:09:00,208
Yeah.

377
00:09:00,375 --> 00:09:01,916
So it's interesting.

378
00:09:02,125 --> 00:09:03,500
So as I was saying, like I

379
00:09:03,500 --> 00:09:04,500
tried a bunch of different

380
00:09:04,500 --> 00:09:04,916
careers.

381
00:09:04,916 --> 00:09:06,000
I would say like professor was

382
00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:07,750
one of them or lecturer as

383
00:09:07,750 --> 00:09:07,958
well.

384
00:09:08,416 --> 00:09:09,500
I was at Microsoft.

385
00:09:09,833 --> 00:09:11,708
I started as a PM on

386
00:09:11,708 --> 00:09:12,166
PowerPoint.

387
00:09:12,708 --> 00:09:14,083
I liked it, but I felt like I

388
00:09:14,083 --> 00:09:14,916
wasn't technical enough.

389
00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:16,708
I wasn't coding enough.
I kind of missed it.

390
00:09:16,750 --> 00:09:17,750
So I was like, okay, maybe

391
00:09:17,750 --> 00:09:18,833
I'll start trying to teach

392
00:09:18,833 --> 00:09:21,208
computer science to get some

393
00:09:21,208 --> 00:09:23,000
of that coding, I don't know,

394
00:09:23,083 --> 00:09:24,208
energy back in my life.

395
00:09:24,916 --> 00:09:27,916
And I started teaching a Java

396
00:09:27,916 --> 00:09:29,916
101 class at a community

397
00:09:29,916 --> 00:09:31,208
college like near work.

398
00:09:31,208 --> 00:09:32,375
So I could go after work and

399
00:09:32,375 --> 00:09:33,916
just go teach the class and

400
00:09:33,916 --> 00:09:34,916
then head home after.

401
00:09:35,458 --> 00:09:37,208
And then that went well.

402
00:09:37,291 --> 00:09:38,125
So then I started like

403
00:09:38,125 --> 00:09:39,416
escalating from there.

404
00:09:39,541 --> 00:09:40,750
And so I decided to like start

405
00:09:40,750 --> 00:09:42,166
being an adjunct professor at

406
00:09:42,166 --> 00:09:42,916
San Francisco State.

407
00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:43,958
And I think I taught like

408
00:09:43,958 --> 00:09:45,000
algorithms 101.

409
00:09:45,333 --> 00:09:46,958
And that was a lot of fun.

410
00:09:47,083 --> 00:09:48,000
Like that was an in-person

411
00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:49,041
class that I would like really

412
00:09:49,041 --> 00:09:49,625
enjoy teaching.

413
00:09:49,708 --> 00:09:50,583
It was a lot closer to where I

414
00:09:50,583 --> 00:09:52,125
lived because I lived in SF.

415
00:09:52,958 --> 00:09:54,083
And that was going well.

416
00:09:54,125 --> 00:09:55,000
So then I was like, oh, let me

417
00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:56,208
try a virtual course.

418
00:09:56,333 --> 00:09:57,375
And I realized teaching

419
00:09:57,375 --> 00:09:58,541
virtually, especially if this

420
00:09:58,541 --> 00:10:01,916
was back in like 2015, is –
Yeah, so different than

421
00:10:01,916 --> 00:10:03,041
teaching virtually today.

422
00:10:03,208 --> 00:10:04,375
It was just so much work.

423
00:10:04,500 --> 00:10:05,916
It was like not as fun it's

424
00:10:05,916 --> 00:10:06,708
not as engaging because you're

425
00:10:06,708 --> 00:10:07,833
not like interacting with the

426
00:10:07,833 --> 00:10:10,458
students and so I decided then

427
00:10:10,458 --> 00:10:11,083
like okay.

428
00:10:11,083 --> 00:10:12,083
I like I tried it.

429
00:10:12,166 --> 00:10:13,833
It's cool in that same time

430
00:10:13,833 --> 00:10:14,125
period.

431
00:10:14,208 --> 00:10:15,666
I ended up switching my

432
00:10:15,666 --> 00:10:16,708
professional career I switched

433
00:10:16,708 --> 00:10:18,125
from being a PM at PowerPoint

434
00:10:18,125 --> 00:10:19,791
to being a software engineer

435
00:10:19,791 --> 00:10:21,125
at Yammer still at Microsoft

436
00:10:21,125 --> 00:10:22,500
So then I was getting coding

437
00:10:22,500 --> 00:10:24,208
and my like actual like work

438
00:10:24,208 --> 00:10:25,458
life as well and so I was

439
00:10:25,458 --> 00:10:26,791
like, okay, I think

440
00:10:26,791 --> 00:10:28,250
I have to stop teaching on the side.

441
00:10:28,250 --> 00:10:29,500
But that was really just

442
00:10:29,500 --> 00:10:31,041
for fun and it was for me to

443
00:10:31,041 --> 00:10:32,583
like give back to my community.

444
00:10:32,583 --> 00:10:32,916
Nice.

445
00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:36,166
I love that if you jump so all

446
00:10:36,166 --> 00:10:37,125
of the pieces that led

447
00:10:37,125 --> 00:10:39,083
career-wise up to let's come

448
00:10:39,083 --> 00:10:44,666
to Smarty negative one Smarty 0

449
00:10:44,666 --> 00:10:45,333
what was that?

450
00:10:45,416 --> 00:10:47,750
Like do you remember that

451
00:10:47,750 --> 00:10:50,541
initial sort of ideation idea?

452
00:10:50,708 --> 00:10:51,208
What was that?

453
00:10:51,291 --> 00:10:53,166
What was the the spark or the

454
00:10:53,166 --> 00:10:54,583
initial inspiration for sort

455
00:10:54,583 --> 00:10:56,625
of starting or exploring down

456
00:10:56,625 --> 00:10:58,625
a path that led to Smarty?

457
00:10:58,708 --> 00:11:00,083
Yeah, it’s funny that we're like,

458
00:11:00,083 --> 00:11:01,375
like going in these chapters

459
00:11:01,375 --> 00:11:02,500
because like right then like

460
00:11:02,500 --> 00:11:03,416
after I switched to being a

461
00:11:03,416 --> 00:11:05,458
software engineer at Gammer, I

462
00:11:05,458 --> 00:11:06,291
realized that I still wasn't

463
00:11:06,291 --> 00:11:07,625
feeling really fulfilled with

464
00:11:07,625 --> 00:11:09,041
the work that I was doing on a

465
00:11:09,041 --> 00:11:11,125
day-to-day basis and I was missing

466
00:11:11,125 --> 00:11:12,291
something I still wanted more

467
00:11:12,291 --> 00:11:13,625
so I ended up deciding that I

468
00:11:13,625 --> 00:11:14,750
wanted to go to business

469
00:11:14,750 --> 00:11:17,166
school and I,

470
00:11:18,458 --> 00:11:19,416
When I was at

471
00:11:19,416 --> 00:11:20,041
business school, I was

472
00:11:20,041 --> 00:11:21,166
thinking oh, I'm maybe I'll

473
00:11:21,166 --> 00:11:22,583
pivot I live out of tech like

474
00:11:22,583 --> 00:11:24,083
I was very open to all of the

475
00:11:24,083 --> 00:11:26,416
careers out there and I

476
00:11:26,416 --> 00:11:27,833
realized like I actually don't

477
00:11:27,833 --> 00:11:29,541
want any of these other career

478
00:11:29,541 --> 00:11:30,333
options.

479
00:11:30,416 --> 00:11:31,291
I don't want to go into

480
00:11:31,291 --> 00:11:32,375
consulting I don't want to go

481
00:11:32,375 --> 00:11:33,750
into finance I'd already tried

482
00:11:33,750 --> 00:11:35,125
both of those careers before

483
00:11:35,125 --> 00:11:36,750
and then I the really like

484
00:11:36,750 --> 00:11:38,291
only other option left that's

485
00:11:38,291 --> 00:11:40,791
big is like operations or CPG

486
00:11:40,791 --> 00:11:41,916
or marketing and I was like, I

487
00:11:41,916 --> 00:11:43,291
don't want to do any of those

488
00:11:43,291 --> 00:11:44,916
things either. Like I'm good at

489
00:11:44,916 --> 00:11:45,125
tech.

490
00:11:45,208 --> 00:11:46,666
I like tech. But then I didn't

491
00:11:46,666 --> 00:11:47,666
want to like immediately jump

492
00:11:47,666 --> 00:11:49,375
back to like going back to

493
00:11:49,375 --> 00:11:50,458
Microsoft after business

494
00:11:50,458 --> 00:11:52,625
school so I really had this

495
00:11:52,625 --> 00:11:54,000
existential moment where I was

496
00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:55,500
like, what do I want to do

497
00:11:55,500 --> 00:11:56,333
with the rest of my life?

498
00:11:56,375 --> 00:11:57,500
And I have to decide now I've

499
00:11:57,500 --> 00:11:58,791
like waited too long to like

500
00:11:58,791 --> 00:12:00,708
try to write it out and I

501
00:12:00,708 --> 00:12:02,125
really thought about like what

502
00:12:02,125 --> 00:12:03,625
is my vision for the future

503
00:12:03,625 --> 00:12:05,458
and what I think software or

504
00:12:05,458 --> 00:12:06,500
technology is going to look

505
00:12:06,500 --> 00:12:08,041
like 30 years from now 40

506
00:12:08,041 --> 00:12:09,375
years from now and kind of

507
00:12:09,375 --> 00:12:11,125
reverse engineered into that

508
00:12:11,125 --> 00:12:12,833
first initial idea of Smarty.

509
00:12:12,833 --> 00:12:13,208
So I I believed at that time I

510
00:12:13,208 --> 00:12:14,833
So I I believed at that time I

511
00:12:14,833 --> 00:12:15,916
still believe today that we're

512
00:12:15,916 --> 00:12:16,791
all gonna have this

513
00:12:16,791 --> 00:12:18,500
conversational web operating

514
00:12:18,500 --> 00:12:20,166
system. A single interface that

515
00:12:20,166 --> 00:12:21,458
we're conversing with that

516
00:12:21,458 --> 00:12:22,708
understands our needs and is

517
00:12:22,708 --> 00:12:24,041
able to do things on our

518
00:12:24,041 --> 00:12:26,416
behalf like representing our

519
00:12:26,416 --> 00:12:27,625
true needs and interests and

520
00:12:27,625 --> 00:12:29,416
desires and so kind of started

521
00:12:29,416 --> 00:12:30,958
with that vision which I still

522
00:12:30,958 --> 00:12:32,625
think is true and reverse

523
00:12:32,625 --> 00:12:33,375
engineered into a

524
00:12:33,375 --> 00:12:34,333
conversational productivity

525
00:12:34,333 --> 00:12:35,791
operating system. So anything

526
00:12:35,791 --> 00:12:36,916
like really focused around

527
00:12:36,916 --> 00:12:38,333
everything you do for work

528
00:12:38,333 --> 00:12:39,541
around like email or calendar

529
00:12:39,541 --> 00:12:40,416
just all of your productivity

530
00:12:40,416 --> 00:12:42,166
tasks. Same sort of

531
00:12:42,166 --> 00:12:43,125
conversational interface and

532
00:12:43,125 --> 00:12:44,083
this is like way back in

533
00:12:44,916 --> 00:12:46,791
2017-2018 way before Chat GPT

534
00:12:46,791 --> 00:12:48,458
and I was like, yeah, like

535
00:12:48,458 --> 00:12:48,958
staying that vision reverse

536
00:12:48,958 --> 00:12:50,041
staying that vision reverse

537
00:12:50,041 --> 00:12:50,916
engineered into this like

538
00:12:50,916 --> 00:12:52,458
subvision and then okay. How do

539
00:12:52,458 --> 00:12:53,625
I reverse engineer into a

540
00:12:53,625 --> 00:12:54,208
product today?

541
00:12:54,291 --> 00:12:56,000
That is monetizable scalable

542
00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:57,791
that lets me control like what

543
00:12:57,791 --> 00:12:58,875
sort of data we're collecting

544
00:12:58,875 --> 00:13:00,250
and that's how I came up with

545
00:13:00,250 --> 00:13:01,458
Smarty And it really started

546
00:13:01,458 --> 00:13:03,250
off as a chatbot where you

547
00:13:03,250 --> 00:13:04,791
were telling it things to do,

548
00:13:05,208 --> 00:13:06,916
to help you like keep track of

549
00:13:06,916 --> 00:13:08,083
your tasks or automate things

550
00:13:08,083 --> 00:13:09,041
and it was like, okay This is

551
00:13:09,041 --> 00:13:09,458
what I want.

552
00:13:09,500 --> 00:13:10,583
I want an AI extension of

553
00:13:10,583 --> 00:13:11,833
myself I think this is like a

554
00:13:11,833 --> 00:13:13,333
type of product that let me

555
00:13:13,333 --> 00:13:14,875
connect the right types of

556
00:13:14,875 --> 00:13:16,458
data I think I know how to

557
00:13:16,458 --> 00:13:17,083
start a startup.

558
00:13:17,333 --> 00:13:19,166
Let me dive right into this

559
00:13:19,166 --> 00:13:21,250
idea and that's how I started

560
00:13:21,250 --> 00:13:23,000
off with Smarty. Looking back

561
00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:23,333
now.

562
00:13:23,416 --> 00:13:24,250
It's like so funny.

563
00:13:24,333 --> 00:13:25,791
Like I did all of the wrong

564
00:13:25,791 --> 00:13:27,583
things when it comes to like

565
00:13:27,583 --> 00:13:28,791
starting a company from

566
00:13:28,791 --> 00:13:29,791
scratch and It's funny to

567
00:13:29,791 --> 00:13:32,541
scratch and It's funny to

568
00:13:32,541 --> 00:13:33,375
think about now, but it was

569
00:13:33,375 --> 00:13:34,625
very devastating at the time

570
00:13:34,625 --> 00:13:35,500
because like nothing was

571
00:13:35,500 --> 00:13:37,375
working the way I wanted it to

572
00:13:37,375 --> 00:13:39,750
work. And this was all pre chat

573
00:13:39,750 --> 00:13:41,416
GPT, so it was also like that's

574
00:13:41,416 --> 00:13:43,125
tech wasn't there the vision

575
00:13:43,125 --> 00:13:44,333
that I was selling I was

576
00:13:44,333 --> 00:13:45,458
selling it to investors and

577
00:13:45,458 --> 00:13:46,666
the appetite for it wasn't

578
00:13:46,666 --> 00:13:47,708
there either because they were

579
00:13:47,708 --> 00:13:48,916
like this is not happening

580
00:13:48,916 --> 00:13:50,375
anytime soon it's so funny,

581
00:13:50,541 --> 00:13:51,416
but they still sell the same

582
00:13:51,416 --> 00:13:53,291
vision in pitches today, but

583
00:13:53,291 --> 00:13:54,416
like the appetite for it is

584
00:13:54,416 --> 00:13:57,041
just kind there.

585
00:13:58,208 --> 00:13:59,458
I can just see that.

586
00:13:59,458 --> 00:14:00,291
I remember that very

587
00:14:00,291 --> 00:14:02,500
specific period late last year

588
00:14:02,500 --> 00:14:04,625
when Chat GPT started to

589
00:14:04,625 --> 00:14:06,958
become a Word that people

590
00:14:06,958 --> 00:14:08,833
started saying and I can

591
00:14:08,833 --> 00:14:11,333
almost imagine you going, huh?

592
00:14:11,875 --> 00:14:15,041
See, I told you, like it's here.

593
00:14:15,125 --> 00:14:15,750
Like it's fun.

594
00:14:15,875 --> 00:14:17,291
Like we've caught up

595
00:14:18,958 --> 00:14:20,333
and so interesting to I think

596
00:14:20,333 --> 00:14:21,166
from a founder perspective

597
00:14:21,166 --> 00:14:22,291
before we sort of dive into

598
00:14:22,291 --> 00:14:24,458
that likes Zero initial state

599
00:14:24,458 --> 00:14:26,583
of Smarty. It's so interesting

600
00:14:26,583 --> 00:14:28,833
to be and I imagine in your

601
00:14:28,833 --> 00:14:31,000
head to be that early a couple

602
00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,083
of years before that moment

603
00:14:33,083 --> 00:14:34,375
and to have those

604
00:14:34,375 --> 00:14:35,250
conversations where you're

605
00:14:35,250 --> 00:14:37,500
like, I'm telling you this is

606
00:14:37,500 --> 00:14:39,458
coming this is the way it's

607
00:14:39,458 --> 00:14:41,208
gonna be and everyone goes and

608
00:14:41,208 --> 00:14:43,625
you know, I mean. Maybe you

609
00:14:43,625 --> 00:14:46,166
know whatever and do do you

610
00:14:46,166 --> 00:14:46,958
feel like it's one of those

611
00:14:46,958 --> 00:14:47,208
things?

612
00:14:47,333 --> 00:14:48,916
Did you have periods in there

613
00:14:48,916 --> 00:14:50,333
of doubt or was it one of

614
00:14:50,333 --> 00:14:51,250
those things that you?

615
00:14:52,375 --> 00:14:53,916
It was so ingrained and you

616
00:14:53,916 --> 00:14:55,500
just saw the future so clearly

617
00:14:55,500 --> 00:14:57,000
that you were like, you don't

618
00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:57,375
get it.

619
00:14:57,458 --> 00:14:59,291
It's fine moving on next.

620
00:14:59,291 --> 00:15:00,333
I wish I had that level of

621
00:15:00,333 --> 00:15:00,750
confidence.

622
00:15:01,208 --> 00:15:03,291
Even now, I definitely don't.

623
00:15:03,416 --> 00:15:05,041
Back then, I would say that

624
00:15:05,041 --> 00:15:06,291
was definitely the worst

625
00:15:06,291 --> 00:15:08,083
existential period of my life

626
00:15:08,083 --> 00:15:09,125
because I was at school.

627
00:15:09,250 --> 00:15:10,208
I was spending so much money

628
00:15:10,208 --> 00:15:12,291
to be at business school, and

629
00:15:12,291 --> 00:15:14,291
I didn't want to go back to

630
00:15:14,291 --> 00:15:15,708
the same job that I had before

631
00:15:15,708 --> 00:15:16,666
even though that was such a

632
00:15:16,666 --> 00:15:17,166
great job.

633
00:15:17,625 --> 00:15:18,791
Now I look back on it

634
00:15:18,791 --> 00:15:19,791
sometimes and I'm like, oh,

635
00:15:20,291 --> 00:15:22,208
nice hours, nice pay.

636
00:15:23,125 --> 00:15:25,958
But I really wanted to

637
00:15:25,958 --> 00:15:29,041
convince people, agree with

638
00:15:29,041 --> 00:15:29,833
me, validate me.

639
00:15:30,250 --> 00:15:32,166
I know this is true, and I

640
00:15:32,166 --> 00:15:34,083
want you to know it's true as

641
00:15:34,083 --> 00:15:34,250
well.

642
00:15:34,291 --> 00:15:35,375
So I spent a lot of time

643
00:15:35,375 --> 00:15:36,250
trying to convince other

644
00:15:36,250 --> 00:15:38,791
people, and I was trying to

645
00:15:38,791 --> 00:15:41,958
find believers in the idea

646
00:15:41,958 --> 00:15:43,041
instead of finding believers

647
00:15:43,041 --> 00:15:46,625
in me or partners for a

648
00:15:46,625 --> 00:15:46,958
venture.

649
00:15:47,416 --> 00:15:48,750
That's what your partners are.

650
00:15:48,916 --> 00:15:50,000
They're your stakeholders,

651
00:15:50,208 --> 00:15:50,958
they're your partners, and

652
00:15:50,958 --> 00:15:52,708
they don't have to believe in

653
00:15:52,708 --> 00:15:54,291
that exact idea necessarily.

654
00:15:54,500 --> 00:15:55,625
They just need to believe in

655
00:15:55,625 --> 00:15:56,791
your potential at that early

656
00:15:56,791 --> 00:15:58,875
stage to build something that

657
00:15:58,875 --> 00:15:59,875
will make money, that will

658
00:15:59,875 --> 00:16:01,083
last, and that can be a

659
00:16:01,083 --> 00:16:02,000
thriving business in the

660
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:02,250
future.

661
00:16:02,708 --> 00:16:04,583
So I've learned a lot over the

662
00:16:04,583 --> 00:16:06,375
years since then around how do

663
00:16:06,375 --> 00:16:07,708
you start at the early stage,

664
00:16:07,791 --> 00:16:08,791
what should you focus on, what

665
00:16:08,791 --> 00:16:10,000
are those pitfalls, and I'm

666
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:11,083
happy to dive into that.

667
00:16:11,333 --> 00:16:11,916
Yeah, totally.

668
00:16:12,125 --> 00:16:13,708
I would love to know that if

669
00:16:13,708 --> 00:16:17,333
you remember that turning

670
00:16:17,333 --> 00:16:19,083
point, that moment when you

671
00:16:19,083 --> 00:16:20,416
sort of either was in an early

672
00:16:20,416 --> 00:16:22,333
POC or was an early sort of

673
00:16:22,333 --> 00:16:23,916
it's the back of a napkin in

674
00:16:23,916 --> 00:16:25,041
the coffee shop or whatever.

675
00:16:25,291 --> 00:16:27,166
Did you have one of those

676
00:16:27,166 --> 00:16:28,375
moments that was sort of like

677
00:16:28,375 --> 00:16:29,291
the light goes on and you go,

678
00:16:29,458 --> 00:16:30,416
okay, this is the path I'm

679
00:16:30,416 --> 00:16:32,458
taking, or was it a bit of a

680
00:16:32,458 --> 00:16:34,875
slow, gradual, and then you're

681
00:16:34,875 --> 00:16:36,000
looking back going, oh, I've

682
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:36,833
been on this path for a

683
00:16:36,833 --> 00:16:36,958
minute.

684
00:16:37,375 --> 00:16:39,000
I think I'm going to keep

685
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:39,541
going on it.

686
00:16:40,541 --> 00:16:41,125
It's funny.

687
00:16:41,291 --> 00:16:42,958
So I started thinking about

688
00:16:42,958 --> 00:16:44,208
Smarty as an idea while I

689
00:16:44,208 --> 00:16:45,083
was at business school, but

690
00:16:45,083 --> 00:16:45,916
then after business school,

691
00:16:45,916 --> 00:16:47,375
I ended up doing a fellowship

692
00:16:47,375 --> 00:16:48,458
and I did a bunch of other

693
00:16:48,458 --> 00:16:50,291
things, but I kept working on

694
00:16:50,291 --> 00:16:51,208
Smarty on the side.

695
00:16:51,750 --> 00:16:53,833
And then eventually I

696
00:16:53,833 --> 00:16:55,208
convinced one of the first

697
00:16:55,208 --> 00:16:56,916
investors I'd ever talked to a

698
00:16:56,916 --> 00:16:58,375
year and a half or a year

699
00:16:58,375 --> 00:16:59,708
later to give me money.

700
00:17:00,500 --> 00:17:02,750
And nothing much had changed

701
00:17:02,750 --> 00:17:03,250
about the vision.

702
00:17:03,416 --> 00:17:04,958
I think it was just my grit

703
00:17:04,958 --> 00:17:05,625
and determination.

704
00:17:06,125 --> 00:17:07,166
And I did have a group of

705
00:17:07,166 --> 00:17:08,208
concept at that time already

706
00:17:08,208 --> 00:17:09,208
that I'd been building out.

707
00:17:09,541 --> 00:17:10,208
It was a chatbot.

708
00:17:11,291 --> 00:17:12,416
It was bad.

709
00:17:12,541 --> 00:17:13,666
It was definitely not what the

710
00:17:13,666 --> 00:17:14,708
product was going to be.

711
00:17:14,875 --> 00:17:15,750
A chatbot was definitely not

712
00:17:15,750 --> 00:17:16,500
the right experience.

713
00:17:16,583 --> 00:17:18,333
It was not serving any users

714
00:17:18,333 --> 00:17:21,208
in like a retaining way.

715
00:17:21,833 --> 00:17:23,791
But it was that first check

716
00:17:23,791 --> 00:17:25,708
that allowed me to quit

717
00:17:25,708 --> 00:17:26,750
everything else I was doing

718
00:17:26,750 --> 00:17:27,833
and just work on Smarty

719
00:17:27,833 --> 00:17:28,375
full-time.

720
00:17:28,625 --> 00:17:30,250
That was the validation that I

721
00:17:30,250 --> 00:17:30,500
needed.

722
00:17:30,833 --> 00:17:32,833
And I wasn't going to quit and

723
00:17:32,833 --> 00:17:33,875
work on Smarty full-time

724
00:17:33,875 --> 00:17:35,041
until I had that.

725
00:17:35,250 --> 00:17:36,916
But I also wasn't pursuing any

726
00:17:36,916 --> 00:17:38,875
jobs like in tech that would

727
00:17:38,875 --> 00:17:40,291
conflict with me working on

728
00:17:40,291 --> 00:17:41,041
Smarty.

729
00:17:42,083 --> 00:17:44,666
I was mostly in on Smarty,

730
00:17:44,750 --> 00:17:46,208
but I wasn't going to quit and

731
00:17:46,208 --> 00:17:47,666
work on it full-time until

732
00:17:47,666 --> 00:17:48,875
someone else started paying

733
00:17:48,875 --> 00:17:49,166
me.

734
00:17:49,416 --> 00:17:50,750
So that was what I needed to

735
00:17:50,750 --> 00:17:51,208
get started.

736
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:53,708
And I wouldn't do that today.

737
00:17:55,250 --> 00:17:57,333
How was that feeling when you

738
00:17:57,333 --> 00:17:58,958
got handed that check or when

739
00:17:58,958 --> 00:18:00,250
that deposit came through?

740
00:18:00,708 --> 00:18:03,333
What were the emotions during

741
00:18:03,333 --> 00:18:03,750
that period?

742
00:18:03,958 --> 00:18:05,250
It's so funny to think back on

743
00:18:05,250 --> 00:18:05,708
now.

744
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:07,666
I was in a fellowship, so I

745
00:18:07,666 --> 00:18:08,708
had to leave the fellowship

746
00:18:09,208 --> 00:18:11,083
early to go pursue this

747
00:18:11,083 --> 00:18:11,625
opportunity.

748
00:18:11,916 --> 00:18:13,083
And so I felt bad about that.

749
00:18:13,125 --> 00:18:14,333
So there was a little bit of

750
00:18:14,333 --> 00:18:17,250
guilt around it, but it was

751
00:18:17,250 --> 00:18:19,250
such a once-in-a-lifetime

752
00:18:19,250 --> 00:18:19,958
opportunity.

753
00:18:20,833 --> 00:18:21,708
And it was what I'd been

754
00:18:21,708 --> 00:18:23,541
working towards for – it felt

755
00:18:23,541 --> 00:18:25,541
like years at that point that

756
00:18:25,541 --> 00:18:27,000
I couldn't see myself doing

757
00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:28,708
anything but pursuing this

758
00:18:28,708 --> 00:18:30,500
full-fledged.

759
00:18:30,708 --> 00:18:32,208
And the person who I was

760
00:18:32,208 --> 00:18:33,333
working for at the fellowship,

761
00:18:33,500 --> 00:18:34,916
she knew this was my goal at

762
00:18:34,916 --> 00:18:35,583
the end of the fellowship.

763
00:18:35,750 --> 00:18:37,000
This is what I wanted at the

764
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:37,250
end.

765
00:18:37,416 --> 00:18:38,625
So the fact that it came a few

766
00:18:38,625 --> 00:18:39,708
months early wasn't a

767
00:18:39,708 --> 00:18:40,875
surprise, but it was

768
00:18:40,875 --> 00:18:42,500
unfortunate that the timing

769
00:18:42,500 --> 00:18:43,333
hadn't been a little bit

770
00:18:43,333 --> 00:18:43,583
better.

771
00:18:45,125 --> 00:18:47,375
But I remember that day where

772
00:18:47,375 --> 00:18:48,208
– it was my first investor,

773
00:18:48,291 --> 00:18:49,291
Pear Ventures, by the way, and

774
00:18:49,291 --> 00:18:50,041
I love working with them.

775
00:18:50,125 --> 00:18:51,416
They're still such great

776
00:18:51,416 --> 00:18:52,333
partners today.

777
00:18:53,125 --> 00:18:54,250
They called me and they were

778
00:18:54,250 --> 00:18:55,375
like, okay, the interview went

779
00:18:55,375 --> 00:18:55,875
great.

780
00:18:56,458 --> 00:18:56,833
We're excited.

781
00:18:56,958 --> 00:18:57,583
It was an accelerator.

782
00:18:57,750 --> 00:18:58,666
So they were like, I'm excited

783
00:18:58,666 --> 00:18:59,750
to invite you into this

784
00:18:59,750 --> 00:19:02,583
accelerator, and we'll give

785
00:19:02,583 --> 00:19:04,291
the money in the next week.

786
00:19:04,500 --> 00:19:06,125
And I was like, okay, you have

787
00:19:06,125 --> 00:19:06,916
to be incorporated.

788
00:19:07,125 --> 00:19:08,250
You have to do all of these

789
00:19:08,250 --> 00:19:08,541
things.

790
00:19:08,958 --> 00:19:11,083
And it just felt like a new

791
00:19:11,083 --> 00:19:11,875
chapter was opening.

792
00:19:12,375 --> 00:19:12,833
Amazing.

793
00:19:13,208 --> 00:19:15,166
So once you got – that week,

794
00:19:15,291 --> 00:19:16,000
money comes through.

795
00:19:16,375 --> 00:19:18,333
What was that first focus?

796
00:19:18,541 --> 00:19:19,750
By the way, I'm in this

797
00:19:19,750 --> 00:19:20,083
WeWork.

798
00:19:20,833 --> 00:19:22,875
I have to move around or it's

799
00:19:22,875 --> 00:19:23,833
going to get dark in here.

800
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:25,416
So if I do this, I'm not

801
00:19:25,416 --> 00:19:25,875
reacting.

802
00:19:26,458 --> 00:19:30,000
But what was the first month

803
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,166
of great money comes in, you

804
00:19:32,166 --> 00:19:33,000
get incorporated, and you

805
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:34,541
start setting up shop?

806
00:19:34,625 --> 00:19:36,250
What was your focus during

807
00:19:36,250 --> 00:19:37,250
that first early period?

808
00:19:37,541 --> 00:19:38,333
So I was the sole founder.

809
00:19:38,583 --> 00:19:39,375
I was the only person.

810
00:19:39,833 --> 00:19:41,416
There was no other employees

811
00:19:41,416 --> 00:19:42,583
or co-founders or anything.

812
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:43,958
I will say that first month

813
00:19:43,958 --> 00:19:44,458
was awful.

814
00:19:44,708 --> 00:19:46,083
It was really, really

815
00:19:46,083 --> 00:19:47,958
existentially terrible because

816
00:19:47,958 --> 00:19:49,750
I had no idea what I was

817
00:19:49,750 --> 00:19:50,125
doing.

818
00:19:50,875 --> 00:19:52,000
And Pair was a great

819
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:53,375
accelerator, and they had

820
00:19:53,375 --> 00:19:54,666
great classes, but they were

821
00:19:54,666 --> 00:19:57,500
not giving me what I needed to

822
00:19:57,500 --> 00:19:58,750
like – take my business from

823
00:19:58,750 --> 00:20:00,583
where I was to where I wanted

824
00:20:00,583 --> 00:20:01,000
to go.

825
00:20:01,166 --> 00:20:02,958
And they weren't telling me

826
00:20:02,958 --> 00:20:04,416
the advice I needed to hear.

827
00:20:04,791 --> 00:20:06,208
And maybe, this was several

828
00:20:06,208 --> 00:20:07,541
years ago, maybe they didn't

829
00:20:07,541 --> 00:20:10,666
even know how to outline out

830
00:20:10,666 --> 00:20:12,541
this is the action plan, or

831
00:20:12,541 --> 00:20:13,833
maybe I wasn't in the right

832
00:20:13,833 --> 00:20:14,625
place to hear it.

833
00:20:14,625 --> 00:20:16,083
Because it's funny, now,

834
00:20:16,250 --> 00:20:17,916
several years later, I hear

835
00:20:17,916 --> 00:20:19,125
certain pieces of advice, and

836
00:20:19,125 --> 00:20:20,416
I'm like, yes, that's so true.

837
00:20:20,750 --> 00:20:21,791
But then I think back to

838
00:20:21,791 --> 00:20:22,833
myself and my younger self,

839
00:20:22,833 --> 00:20:23,708
and I'm like, I've heard that

840
00:20:23,708 --> 00:20:24,916
piece of advice before, and I

841
00:20:24,916 --> 00:20:25,416
ignored it.

842
00:20:25,541 --> 00:20:26,250
Because I was like, that

843
00:20:26,250 --> 00:20:27,625
doesn't apply to me.

844
00:20:28,291 --> 00:20:29,791
So, I think you have to be in

845
00:20:29,791 --> 00:20:31,041
the right place at the right

846
00:20:31,041 --> 00:20:33,208
time, with the right mindset.

847
00:20:33,625 --> 00:20:34,041
And that first month, I was

848
00:20:34,041 --> 00:20:36,791
And that first month, I was

849
00:20:36,791 --> 00:20:37,625
lost.

850
00:20:37,875 --> 00:20:40,250
I had this money, I was

851
00:20:40,250 --> 00:20:41,708
working on this full time, and

852
00:20:41,708 --> 00:20:42,625
I was like, okay, I have this

853
00:20:42,625 --> 00:20:44,250
early product, what am I

854
00:20:44,250 --> 00:20:44,916
supposed to do now?

855
00:20:45,041 --> 00:20:45,875
Like, how am I supposed to

856
00:20:45,875 --> 00:20:47,916
take it to what a business is

857
00:20:47,916 --> 00:20:48,541
supposed to be?

858
00:20:48,583 --> 00:20:49,791
And I really just didn't even

859
00:20:49,791 --> 00:20:50,791
understand the fundamentals.

860
00:20:51,416 --> 00:20:53,250
Did you have any support

861
00:20:53,250 --> 00:20:54,916
during that period, like early

862
00:20:54,916 --> 00:20:58,875
advisors, or anybody who got

863
00:20:58,875 --> 00:21:00,875
it during that first, say, six

864
00:21:00,875 --> 00:21:02,458
months, or that you sought out

865
00:21:02,458 --> 00:21:04,541
to sort of give you a little

866
00:21:04,541 --> 00:21:06,291
bit of a handhold of like, I

867
00:21:06,291 --> 00:21:07,708
see where you're headed, let

868
00:21:07,708 --> 00:21:09,166
me, did you have anybody like

869
00:21:09,166 --> 00:21:10,125
that in that early period?

870
00:21:10,250 --> 00:21:12,125
So, Pear definitely invested

871
00:21:12,125 --> 00:21:13,125
resources in me.

872
00:21:13,250 --> 00:21:14,416
They had advisors that I would

873
00:21:14,416 --> 00:21:15,833
talk to, but a lot of that was

874
00:21:15,833 --> 00:21:17,750
focused around figuring out

875
00:21:17,750 --> 00:21:19,458
the pitch, and figuring out

876
00:21:19,458 --> 00:21:22,916
advice from some of the other

877
00:21:24,250 --> 00:21:25,583
startup founders who had made

878
00:21:25,583 --> 00:21:25,791
it.

879
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:27,125
But I think they were too far

880
00:21:27,125 --> 00:21:29,041
ahead for me to truly

881
00:21:29,041 --> 00:21:30,208
understand some of their

882
00:21:30,208 --> 00:21:31,333
advice and apply it to my own

883
00:21:31,333 --> 00:21:31,666
company.

884
00:21:32,208 --> 00:21:33,750
And then the cohort with me,

885
00:21:33,875 --> 00:21:34,916
they were all in different

886
00:21:34,916 --> 00:21:35,750
stages, too.

887
00:21:36,708 --> 00:21:38,000
And so I was embarrassed,

888
00:21:38,208 --> 00:21:39,916
really, about where I was, and

889
00:21:39,916 --> 00:21:41,500
what my status was compared to

890
00:21:41,500 --> 00:21:42,375
them, even though I had no

891
00:21:42,375 --> 00:21:44,125
idea how those businesses were

892
00:21:44,125 --> 00:21:44,416
doing.

893
00:21:44,500 --> 00:21:45,916
I just felt like I wasn't good

894
00:21:45,916 --> 00:21:46,208
enough.

895
00:21:46,500 --> 00:21:47,666
I had a lot of imposter

896
00:21:47,666 --> 00:21:49,750
syndrome at the time, just

897
00:21:49,750 --> 00:21:51,916
around where I was at and

898
00:21:51,916 --> 00:21:53,000
where I needed to be.

899
00:21:53,500 --> 00:21:54,958
And I think the right thing to

900
00:21:54,958 --> 00:21:56,458
do would have been to seek out

901
00:21:56,458 --> 00:21:57,916
someone who was just one step

902
00:21:57,916 --> 00:21:59,208
ahead of me, just who had just

903
00:21:59,208 --> 00:22:02,125
figured out that one step, and

904
00:22:02,125 --> 00:22:03,208
was at the next step.

905
00:22:03,250 --> 00:22:04,041
But I wasn't even sure what

906
00:22:04,041 --> 00:22:05,166
that one step was.

907
00:22:05,250 --> 00:22:06,458
I know now, but I didn't then.

908
00:22:08,666 --> 00:22:12,041
And I didn't reach out to

909
00:22:12,041 --> 00:22:12,791
people because I was

910
00:22:12,791 --> 00:22:13,083
embarrassed.

911
00:22:13,333 --> 00:22:15,000
I didn't wanna say, I have no

912
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:15,666
idea what I'm doing.

913
00:22:16,041 --> 00:22:17,875
And I need help.

914
00:22:17,958 --> 00:22:20,375
I need someone to tell me an

915
00:22:20,375 --> 00:22:22,291
execution plan or a roadmap or

916
00:22:22,291 --> 00:22:22,541
something.

917
00:22:22,583 --> 00:22:23,125
And that's the thing with

918
00:22:23,125 --> 00:22:23,458
founders.

919
00:22:23,916 --> 00:22:25,333
There are so many unknown

920
00:22:25,333 --> 00:22:25,750
unknowns.

921
00:22:25,958 --> 00:22:27,208
You are never going to get

922
00:22:27,208 --> 00:22:27,666
that roadmap.

923
00:22:28,666 --> 00:22:29,833
But it would have been nice

924
00:22:29,833 --> 00:22:30,791
for someone to be like, hey,

925
00:22:30,833 --> 00:22:32,083
this is what I would do if I

926
00:22:32,083 --> 00:22:32,416
were you.

927
00:22:32,875 --> 00:22:35,375
And one, not that many people

928
00:22:35,375 --> 00:22:35,750
are founders.

929
00:22:35,875 --> 00:22:36,958
So it's like, who is going to

930
00:22:36,958 --> 00:22:38,083
tell you that advice and

931
00:22:38,083 --> 00:22:40,041
really have the right advice

932
00:22:40,041 --> 00:22:41,125
to give?

933
00:22:41,958 --> 00:22:43,958
And I think my investors,

934
00:22:44,166 --> 00:22:45,500
obviously, were saying the

935
00:22:45,500 --> 00:22:47,458
right things, like obviously

936
00:22:47,458 --> 00:22:48,500
finding customers that are

937
00:22:48,500 --> 00:22:49,583
willing to pay you for a

938
00:22:49,583 --> 00:22:49,958
problem.

939
00:22:50,250 --> 00:22:51,958
But I didn't understand how

940
00:22:51,958 --> 00:22:53,250
that applied to what I was

941
00:22:53,250 --> 00:22:54,208
trying to build, which was a

942
00:22:54,208 --> 00:22:57,666
consumer or productivity tool.

943
00:22:58,750 --> 00:23:01,125
And I kept building the

944
00:23:01,125 --> 00:23:02,083
solution because I thought,

945
00:23:02,208 --> 00:23:03,500
okay, if I spend time building

946
00:23:03,500 --> 00:23:05,041
the solution, making it good

947
00:23:05,041 --> 00:23:07,416
enough for me, then it'll be

948
00:23:07,416 --> 00:23:08,333
good enough for someone else.

949
00:23:08,500 --> 00:23:10,083
And that is definitely not how

950
00:23:10,083 --> 00:23:10,750
you build a startup.

951
00:23:11,458 --> 00:23:11,875
Yeah.

952
00:23:11,875 --> 00:23:14,416
So during that period, before

953
00:23:14,416 --> 00:23:15,708
we jump into sort of the early

954
00:23:15,708 --> 00:23:17,500
building and where you got to,

955
00:23:18,125 --> 00:23:20,000
is what would you say to you

956
00:23:20,666 --> 00:23:22,166
back during that confusing

957
00:23:22,166 --> 00:23:23,500
period now where you sort of

958
00:23:23,500 --> 00:23:25,166
felt embarrassed and weren't

959
00:23:25,166 --> 00:23:26,250
reaching out as much?

960
00:23:26,541 --> 00:23:27,541
So I would say two main

961
00:23:27,541 --> 00:23:27,791
things.

962
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:29,583
First, something that I've

963
00:23:29,583 --> 00:23:30,375
like really taken to heart

964
00:23:30,375 --> 00:23:31,500
over the years is everyone has

965
00:23:31,500 --> 00:23:32,166
over the years is everyone has

966
00:23:32,166 --> 00:23:32,875
imposter syndrome.

967
00:23:32,958 --> 00:23:34,166
And the only thing that's

968
00:23:34,166 --> 00:23:35,541
different between imposter

969
00:23:35,541 --> 00:23:36,916
syndrome and a growth mindset

970
00:23:36,916 --> 00:23:38,875
is you're telling yourself, I

971
00:23:38,875 --> 00:23:40,791
can't do this.
But really you should be

972
00:23:40,791 --> 00:23:41,916
telling yourself, I can't do

973
00:23:41,916 --> 00:23:42,458
this yet.

974
00:23:43,083 --> 00:23:44,083
I don't know how to do it

975
00:23:44,083 --> 00:23:45,625
today, but I can learn and I

976
00:23:45,625 --> 00:23:46,458
can find the right resource.

977
00:23:46,625 --> 00:23:47,500
And that's the only thing

978
00:23:47,500 --> 00:23:48,791
anyone has control over is

979
00:23:48,791 --> 00:23:50,750
like moving forward and

980
00:23:50,750 --> 00:23:51,416
stepping ahead.

981
00:23:51,541 --> 00:23:52,791
And if you can't do something

982
00:23:52,791 --> 00:23:54,166
today, doesn't mean you can't

983
00:23:54,166 --> 00:23:54,666
do it forever.

984
00:23:55,666 --> 00:23:57,375
So I think that is something

985
00:23:57,375 --> 00:23:58,500
that I just really would have

986
00:23:58,500 --> 00:23:59,958
wanted to like instill in my

987
00:23:59,958 --> 00:24:02,833
younger self around like, it

988
00:24:02,833 --> 00:24:03,875
doesn't matter that you don't

989
00:24:03,875 --> 00:24:04,541
know how to do it today.

990
00:24:04,583 --> 00:24:06,916
Like the real win is putting

991
00:24:06,916 --> 00:24:07,666
yourself out there and trying

992
00:24:07,666 --> 00:24:09,791
to learn and being better

993
00:24:09,791 --> 00:24:10,333
tomorrow.

994
00:24:11,125 --> 00:24:12,083
So that's definitely something

995
00:24:12,083 --> 00:24:13,625
that like came over time.

996
00:24:13,625 --> 00:24:15,250
And I really like learned to

997
00:24:15,250 --> 00:24:16,166
appreciate that over the

998
00:24:16,166 --> 00:24:17,291
startup journey because at

999
00:24:17,291 --> 00:24:18,291
certain points, like there's

1000
00:24:18,291 --> 00:24:19,375
so many high highs and low

1001
00:24:19,375 --> 00:24:20,916
lows that the only reward you

1002
00:24:20,916 --> 00:24:22,291
really have is the knowledge

1003
00:24:22,291 --> 00:24:23,708
that you gain or the

1004
00:24:23,708 --> 00:24:26,166
curiosities that you fulfill.

1005
00:24:26,583 --> 00:24:28,083
It's sometimes like these

1006
00:24:28,083 --> 00:24:29,708
intangible things that end up

1007
00:24:29,708 --> 00:24:31,375
having so much more value, but

1008
00:24:31,375 --> 00:24:32,458
you can't really see that in

1009
00:24:32,458 --> 00:24:33,625
that day-to-day,

1010
00:24:33,708 --> 00:24:35,291
moment-to-moment progression.

1011
00:24:35,916 --> 00:24:36,708
And the second thing that I

1012
00:24:36,708 --> 00:24:38,375
would tell myself, which is

1013
00:24:38,375 --> 00:24:39,625
like advice that I really like

1014
00:24:39,625 --> 00:24:41,291
learned over the last, I think

1015
00:24:41,291 --> 00:24:42,333
I learned it really this year,

1016
00:24:42,458 --> 00:24:43,583
is if you're in that

1017
00:24:43,583 --> 00:24:45,375
zero-to-one stage, the only

1018
00:24:45,375 --> 00:24:46,958
thing that matters is someone

1019
00:24:46,958 --> 00:24:47,416
paying you.

1020
00:24:47,708 --> 00:24:48,666
It doesn't matter that you

1021
00:24:48,666 --> 00:24:49,958
have a product that works.

1022
00:24:50,083 --> 00:24:50,791
In fact, you probably

1023
00:24:50,791 --> 00:24:51,750
shouldn't even have a product.

1024
00:24:52,166 --> 00:24:54,458
You probably for that 100K in

1025
00:24:54,458 --> 00:24:56,666
AR- should just be manually

1026
00:24:56,666 --> 00:24:58,166
delivering some sort of value

1027
00:24:58,166 --> 00:24:59,458
and proving out that someone

1028
00:24:59,458 --> 00:25:00,750
is willing to pay for the

1029
00:25:00,750 --> 00:25:01,166
solution.

1030
00:25:01,500 --> 00:25:02,375
And like you can tell them

1031
00:25:02,375 --> 00:25:03,791
it's automation, you could

1032
00:25:03,791 --> 00:25:05,000
tell them and be honest, like

1033
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:05,875
I'm doing this, but I'm trying

1034
00:25:05,875 --> 00:25:06,958
to figure out what product to

1035
00:25:06,958 --> 00:25:07,333
build.

1036
00:25:07,458 --> 00:25:08,791
But the fact is like the only

1037
00:25:08,791 --> 00:25:11,625
thing that matters is someone

1038
00:25:11,625 --> 00:25:13,333
already paying you actively

1039
00:25:13,333 --> 00:25:14,833
upfront to deliver some

1040
00:25:14,833 --> 00:25:15,291
service.

1041
00:25:15,333 --> 00:25:16,333
And that's how you know that

1042
00:25:16,333 --> 00:25:18,291
service has real value to that

1043
00:25:18,291 --> 00:25:19,583
customer, that it's a real

1044
00:25:19,583 --> 00:25:20,083
pain point.

1045
00:25:20,083 --> 00:25:20,916
Because if they're not willing

1046
00:25:20,916 --> 00:25:22,375
to pay for it upfront, and

1047
00:25:22,375 --> 00:25:23,333
you're doing all of these user

1048
00:25:23,333 --> 00:25:24,208
interviews and customer

1049
00:25:24,208 --> 00:25:26,333
discovery, it doesn't mean

1050
00:25:26,333 --> 00:25:26,708
anything.

1051
00:25:26,833 --> 00:25:28,125
It's like, we read the

1052
00:25:28,125 --> 00:25:29,208
Montess, I read the Montess

1053
00:25:29,208 --> 00:25:30,500
back then, but I didn't really

1054
00:25:30,500 --> 00:25:31,625
understand that there's a

1055
00:25:31,625 --> 00:25:32,583
difference between user

1056
00:25:32,583 --> 00:25:34,583
interviews and sales calls.

1057
00:25:35,041 --> 00:25:36,666
And what you'd be doing from

1058
00:25:36,666 --> 00:25:38,500
day one or day zero or day

1059
00:25:38,500 --> 00:25:40,250
negative one is selling and

1060
00:25:40,250 --> 00:25:41,375
finding a customer that's

1061
00:25:41,375 --> 00:25:42,125
willing to pay you.

1062
00:25:42,958 --> 00:25:43,875
And then you get that customer

1063
00:25:43,875 --> 00:25:45,083
and you trial and error, like

1064
00:25:45,083 --> 00:25:46,125
maybe the solution isn't the

1065
00:25:46,125 --> 00:25:46,875
right thing, maybe it's not

1066
00:25:46,875 --> 00:25:47,958
what you wanna work on, maybe

1067
00:25:47,958 --> 00:25:49,041
they're not paying you enough,

1068
00:25:49,291 --> 00:25:50,250
or maybe you haven't found

1069
00:25:50,250 --> 00:25:51,958
something valuable enough to

1070
00:25:51,958 --> 00:25:52,708
get paid for.

1071
00:25:53,125 --> 00:25:54,125
But that way you're having

1072
00:25:54,125 --> 00:25:55,833
real concrete data from day

1073
00:25:55,833 --> 00:25:57,125
one around what is working,

1074
00:25:57,375 --> 00:25:58,791
what isn't, and who is the

1075
00:25:58,791 --> 00:25:59,875
customer that you're serving.

1076
00:26:00,666 --> 00:26:03,291
And I was doing it completely

1077
00:26:03,291 --> 00:26:04,375
the wrong way, just trying to

1078
00:26:04,375 --> 00:26:05,583
build a product from the

1079
00:26:05,583 --> 00:26:05,791
start.

1080
00:26:06,291 --> 00:26:08,416
I love that point of view.

1081
00:26:08,958 --> 00:26:11,708
I imagine also, I'm interested

1082
00:26:11,708 --> 00:26:12,875
to hear what you think if you

1083
00:26:12,875 --> 00:26:14,125
look back to that period and

1084
00:26:14,125 --> 00:26:17,500
now, when you think about this

1085
00:26:17,500 --> 00:26:19,416
zero to one period and when

1086
00:26:19,416 --> 00:26:20,791
things are confusing, and also

1087
00:26:20,791 --> 00:26:22,708
there is no specific roadmap.

1088
00:26:22,958 --> 00:26:24,375
You can't ask anyone that

1089
00:26:24,375 --> 00:26:26,666
they're like, here's the five

1090
00:26:26,666 --> 00:26:28,458
steps that you specifically

1091
00:26:28,458 --> 00:26:29,125
have to take.

1092
00:26:29,208 --> 00:26:30,125
You sort of take parts and

1093
00:26:30,125 --> 00:26:30,708
pieces from that.

1094
00:26:30,791 --> 00:26:32,541
But the only way to do that is

1095
00:26:32,541 --> 00:26:33,375
to trust your gut.

1096
00:26:33,833 --> 00:26:35,833
I know it always feels a

1097
00:26:35,833 --> 00:26:36,875
little bumper stickery, but I

1098
00:26:36,875 --> 00:26:38,291
feel like in this period that

1099
00:26:38,291 --> 00:26:40,375
I'm in, in the first four or

1100
00:26:40,375 --> 00:26:44,625
five months, no other time in

1101
00:26:44,625 --> 00:26:47,583
my life have I been so close

1102
00:26:47,583 --> 00:26:48,958
to understanding what that

1103
00:26:48,958 --> 00:26:50,416
means in terms of trusting

1104
00:26:50,416 --> 00:26:53,500
your gut and understanding

1105
00:26:53,500 --> 00:26:55,666
something fully and pushing

1106
00:26:55,666 --> 00:26:56,791
towards something, even if

1107
00:26:56,791 --> 00:26:57,625
you've got people going, I

1108
00:26:57,625 --> 00:26:58,291
don't think that's a great

1109
00:26:58,291 --> 00:26:58,500
idea.

1110
00:26:58,916 --> 00:27:00,375
Do you feel like you've also

1111
00:27:00,375 --> 00:27:02,458
gotten closer to that place

1112
00:27:02,458 --> 00:27:03,541
over the past couple of years

1113
00:27:03,541 --> 00:27:05,500
where you can really sort of

1114
00:27:05,500 --> 00:27:07,583
listen and go like, I can feel

1115
00:27:07,583 --> 00:27:09,791
what the direction needs to be

1116
00:27:09,791 --> 00:27:12,625
versus trying to take all that

1117
00:27:12,625 --> 00:27:14,708
input and early on feeling

1118
00:27:14,708 --> 00:27:16,333
like, should I trust this or

1119
00:27:16,333 --> 00:27:17,208
should I not?

1120
00:27:18,041 --> 00:27:19,041
Yeah, it's a really great

1121
00:27:19,041 --> 00:27:20,375
question because I've often

1122
00:27:20,375 --> 00:27:21,000
thought about it.

1123
00:27:21,041 --> 00:27:22,166
Like, how much are you

1124
00:27:22,166 --> 00:27:23,500
supposed to listen to your

1125
00:27:23,500 --> 00:27:24,750
intuition and to your gut?

1126
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,083
And like, how do you know if

1127
00:27:27,083 --> 00:27:28,000
you're doing the right thing

1128
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:28,708
or not?

1129
00:27:28,750 --> 00:27:30,375
And how much should you be

1130
00:27:30,375 --> 00:27:31,708
seeking other people's

1131
00:27:31,708 --> 00:27:32,291
opinions, right?

1132
00:27:32,291 --> 00:27:33,333
Because you shouldn't be like

1133
00:27:33,333 --> 00:27:34,375
dependent on external

1134
00:27:34,375 --> 00:27:34,791
validation.

1135
00:27:34,791 --> 00:27:36,208
Then you're just gonna really

1136
00:27:36,208 --> 00:27:37,916
be at the whim of someone

1137
00:27:37,916 --> 00:27:39,458
else's high highs and low lows

1138
00:27:39,458 --> 00:27:41,041
and the journey enough of that

1139
00:27:41,041 --> 00:27:41,583
by itself.

1140
00:27:41,958 --> 00:27:43,041
And so I think what I've

1141
00:27:43,041 --> 00:27:45,458
really learned over time is

1142
00:27:45,458 --> 00:27:48,416
that your gut gets stronger

1143
00:27:48,416 --> 00:27:50,333
and smarter the more you

1144
00:27:50,333 --> 00:27:52,458
expose yourself to uncertain

1145
00:27:52,458 --> 00:27:53,083
situations.

1146
00:27:53,333 --> 00:27:55,083
You have a lot of intuitive,

1147
00:27:55,458 --> 00:27:57,000
internal pattern recognition

1148
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:57,791
over time.

1149
00:27:58,208 --> 00:27:59,750
And the more circumstances and

1150
00:27:59,750 --> 00:28:01,000
situations that you put

1151
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:02,541
yourself in, the more you're

1152
00:28:02,541 --> 00:28:03,250
strengthening your gut.

1153
00:28:03,333 --> 00:28:04,416
You're putting those reps in.

1154
00:28:04,833 --> 00:28:06,958
But at the same time, your gut

1155
00:28:06,958 --> 00:28:08,166
can be wrong sometimes, right?

1156
00:28:08,166 --> 00:28:08,916
Like you might not have been

1157
00:28:08,916 --> 00:28:10,166
exposed to all of the things

1158
00:28:10,166 --> 00:28:11,583
that it needs to be exposed to

1159
00:28:11,583 --> 00:28:13,041
in order to have that right

1160
00:28:13,041 --> 00:28:14,583
internal compass.

1161
00:28:15,416 --> 00:28:17,958
It is important to put

1162
00:28:17,958 --> 00:28:19,083
yourself out there in front of

1163
00:28:19,083 --> 00:28:20,750
other people and get your

1164
00:28:20,750 --> 00:28:22,791
ideas and get validation and

1165
00:28:22,791 --> 00:28:25,000
test for other people's

1166
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:25,583
appetite.

1167
00:28:26,416 --> 00:28:28,583
I think really over time what

1168
00:28:28,583 --> 00:28:29,458
I've learned is that it's a

1169
00:28:29,458 --> 00:28:30,500
balance between everything.

1170
00:28:30,625 --> 00:28:31,625
It's a balance between my own

1171
00:28:31,625 --> 00:28:32,666
gut and my own intuition.

1172
00:28:33,041 --> 00:28:34,708
It's a balance between the

1173
00:28:34,708 --> 00:28:36,333
attitudes I'm getting from

1174
00:28:36,333 --> 00:28:36,833
other people.

1175
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,083
And often I think now you have

1176
00:28:39,083 --> 00:28:40,250
to go out and seek people who

1177
00:28:40,250 --> 00:28:41,666
have the opposite opinion as

1178
00:28:41,666 --> 00:28:41,833
you.

1179
00:28:42,041 --> 00:28:43,208
You have to not take anything

1180
00:28:43,208 --> 00:28:43,708
personally.

1181
00:28:44,125 --> 00:28:44,791
You can't take someone

1182
00:28:44,791 --> 00:28:45,916
agreeing with you as like

1183
00:28:45,916 --> 00:28:46,958
really good news and you can't

1184
00:28:46,958 --> 00:28:48,250
take someone not agreeing with

1185
00:28:48,250 --> 00:28:49,000
you as really bad news.

1186
00:28:49,083 --> 00:28:50,416
You kind of have to take all

1187
00:28:50,416 --> 00:28:52,125
of it, take what is

1188
00:28:52,125 --> 00:28:53,208
constructive and what you can

1189
00:28:53,208 --> 00:28:55,125
use to change or iterate or

1190
00:28:55,125 --> 00:28:55,583
experiment.

1191
00:28:55,958 --> 00:28:57,250
And then from there, once you

1192
00:28:57,250 --> 00:28:58,083
have your gut and you have

1193
00:28:58,083 --> 00:28:59,958
this data around like what

1194
00:28:59,958 --> 00:29:01,166
other people think, then you

1195
00:29:01,166 --> 00:29:01,916
have to do your own

1196
00:29:01,916 --> 00:29:03,000
experiments, your own tests.

1197
00:29:03,083 --> 00:29:03,958
And so you have to start

1198
00:29:03,958 --> 00:29:06,083
validating your gut yourself.

1199
00:29:07,541 --> 00:29:07,916
Right.

1200
00:29:08,500 --> 00:29:09,583
It's almost like you have, so

1201
00:29:09,583 --> 00:29:11,291
you have experience as one of

1202
00:29:11,291 --> 00:29:13,833
the inputs and then you've got

1203
00:29:13,833 --> 00:29:15,166
data and then you've got

1204
00:29:15,166 --> 00:29:17,333
inputs and inputs could also

1205
00:29:17,333 --> 00:29:20,541
be like magnifying the number

1206
00:29:20,541 --> 00:29:21,041
of inputs.

1207
00:29:21,166 --> 00:29:22,416
So my friend Trip thinks it's

1208
00:29:22,416 --> 00:29:22,958
a great idea.

1209
00:29:23,541 --> 00:29:24,375
That's one.

1210
00:29:25,041 --> 00:29:26,625
Let me go get a hundred or

1211
00:29:26,625 --> 00:29:26,875
whatever.

1212
00:29:27,041 --> 00:29:28,375
And so between that data and

1213
00:29:28,375 --> 00:29:29,666
inputs and experience, if you

1214
00:29:29,666 --> 00:29:31,791
take all three of those and

1215
00:29:31,791 --> 00:29:32,958
internalize those, it's like

1216
00:29:32,958 --> 00:29:34,958
let the computer do the

1217
00:29:34,958 --> 00:29:37,875
processing and get good at

1218
00:29:37,875 --> 00:29:39,708
what that feels like.

1219
00:29:40,041 --> 00:29:41,625
But you also have to, I think

1220
00:29:41,625 --> 00:29:42,916
to your point, make sure that

1221
00:29:42,916 --> 00:29:45,500
you're exposing to a bunch of

1222
00:29:45,500 --> 00:29:46,500
data and a bunch of different

1223
00:29:46,500 --> 00:29:48,291
inputs from either people who

1224
00:29:48,291 --> 00:29:49,166
have done it before or

1225
00:29:49,166 --> 00:29:50,958
customers or, and then take

1226
00:29:50,958 --> 00:29:52,875
all of that to get better at it.

1227
00:29:53,916 --> 00:29:55,416
I think the really crucial step

1228
00:29:55,416 --> 00:29:56,583
after that is like,

1229
00:29:56,583 --> 00:29:57,333
once you have all

1230
00:29:57,333 --> 00:29:58,166
of these hypotheses

1231
00:29:58,166 --> 00:29:58,750
and you have all

1232
00:29:58,750 --> 00:29:59,625
of these data point,

1233
00:29:59,625 --> 00:30:01,291
you have to be running tests,

1234
00:30:01,291 --> 00:30:01,875
you have to be

1235
00:30:01,875 --> 00:30:03,416
experimenting yourself.

1236
00:30:03,416 --> 00:30:05,916
You have to come up with

1237
00:30:05,916 --> 00:30:07,250
three different hypotheses.

1238
00:30:07,250 --> 00:30:08,875
One, that you really agree with.

1239
00:30:08,875 --> 00:30:10,208
One that maybe you don't agree with.

1240
00:30:10,208 --> 00:30:11,416
Something in the middle.

1241
00:30:11,416 --> 00:30:13,083
and you have to just be testing

1242
00:30:13,083 --> 00:30:14,375
to see what's actually working.

1243
00:30:14,375 --> 00:30:14,916
And that, like,

1244
00:30:14,916 --> 00:30:16,416
forces you to evaluate,

1245
00:30:16,416 --> 00:30:17,958
okay, what is

1246
00:30:17,958 --> 00:30:18,833
what are the metrics

1247
00:30:18,833 --> 00:30:20,166
that will help me decide

1248
00:30:20,166 --> 00:30:21,791
what is the right way forward.

1249
00:30:22,041 --> 00:30:23,333
Right.

1250
00:30:23,333 --> 00:30:24,625
So so we get to this

1251
00:30:24,625 --> 00:30:26,708
place where, like, what's the

1252
00:30:27,666 --> 00:30:28,875
You start and then within

1253
00:30:28,875 --> 00:30:30,458
those, the really confusing

1254
00:30:30,458 --> 00:30:33,375
part, you know, gut is maybe

1255
00:30:33,375 --> 00:30:34,791
not strong yet or you're sort

1256
00:30:34,791 --> 00:30:36,833
of feeling that imposter

1257
00:30:36,833 --> 00:30:37,083
syndrome.

1258
00:30:37,375 --> 00:30:38,958
What's the next sort of

1259
00:30:38,958 --> 00:30:40,250
milestone that you remember

1260
00:30:40,250 --> 00:30:42,083
where it starts to change or

1261
00:30:42,083 --> 00:30:43,083
pivot a little bit and you

1262
00:30:43,083 --> 00:30:44,416
either get some traction or

1263
00:30:44,416 --> 00:30:46,375
you're starting to get better

1264
00:30:46,375 --> 00:30:48,000
input or you pivoted a little

1265
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:49,083
bit and you're starting to

1266
00:30:49,083 --> 00:30:50,291
feel more confident about it?

1267
00:30:51,333 --> 00:30:52,791
Honestly, I would say that I

1268
00:30:52,791 --> 00:30:53,875
didn't really, like, get more

1269
00:30:53,875 --> 00:30:55,208
confidence in our direction

1270
00:30:55,208 --> 00:30:56,666
until very, very recently.

1271
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,541
And so, the years in between

1272
00:30:59,541 --> 00:31:00,916
was a lot of meandering.

1273
00:31:01,416 --> 00:31:04,458
And, I feel like

1274
00:31:05,583 --> 00:31:06,833
I was lucky to

1275
00:31:06,833 --> 00:31:08,666
find such amazing investors

1276
00:31:08,666 --> 00:31:09,916
coming out of that accelerator

1277
00:31:09,916 --> 00:31:11,625
that were willing to invest in

1278
00:31:11,625 --> 00:31:13,375
me and let me explore this

1279
00:31:13,375 --> 00:31:14,833
idea and this space.

1280
00:31:16,208 --> 00:31:18,083
And they came out of that Pear

1281
00:31:18,083 --> 00:31:20,000
accelerator and put in, like,

1282
00:31:20,041 --> 00:31:20,916
a small pre-seed round.

1283
00:31:21,166 --> 00:31:22,458
And so, I used that to hire my

1284
00:31:22,458 --> 00:31:23,791
first engineer and then we

1285
00:31:23,791 --> 00:31:24,791
started building a different

1286
00:31:24,791 --> 00:31:26,083
version of the product.

1287
00:31:26,208 --> 00:31:27,375
So, we were originally a

1288
00:31:27,375 --> 00:31:28,458
chatbot, then we switched to

1289
00:31:28,458 --> 00:31:29,291
being a Chrome extension.

1290
00:31:29,916 --> 00:31:31,041
We, like, competed with, like,

1291
00:31:31,041 --> 00:31:31,791
a lot of other, like,

1292
00:31:31,791 --> 00:31:33,083
scheduling tools that were out

1293
00:31:33,083 --> 00:31:34,041
there in the market because

1294
00:31:34,041 --> 00:31:35,458
your calendar has the type of

1295
00:31:35,458 --> 00:31:36,416
data around, like, how you

1296
00:31:36,416 --> 00:31:37,791
live and work and what you do

1297
00:31:37,791 --> 00:31:38,291
with your time.

1298
00:31:38,375 --> 00:31:39,291
So, I was like, that's where

1299
00:31:39,291 --> 00:31:40,208
we're going to find the type

1300
00:31:40,208 --> 00:31:41,875
of data we need for that next

1301
00:31:41,875 --> 00:31:44,916
level product.
But I was still spending so

1302
00:31:44,916 --> 00:31:46,500
much time building the product

1303
00:31:46,500 --> 00:31:47,500
instead of validating

1304
00:31:47,500 --> 00:31:49,208
customers that would pay for it.

1305
00:31:49,375 --> 00:31:50,416
And it was a different time in

1306
00:31:50,416 --> 00:31:53,833
the investor space as well.

1307
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:55,708
Like, there was less pressure

1308
00:31:55,708 --> 00:31:57,083
to find revenue.

1309
00:31:57,458 --> 00:31:58,708
I had investors who were like,

1310
00:31:58,750 --> 00:31:59,750
revenue is really important.

1311
00:31:59,916 --> 00:32:01,041
But I also had investors that

1312
00:32:01,041 --> 00:32:02,291
were like, actually, usage is

1313
00:32:02,291 --> 00:32:02,666
more important.

1314
00:32:02,791 --> 00:32:03,541
Get more users.

1315
00:32:03,708 --> 00:32:04,875
Just get people to, like, try

1316
00:32:04,875 --> 00:32:05,333
the product.

1317
00:32:05,625 --> 00:32:06,791
And so, we had a good number

1318
00:32:06,791 --> 00:32:08,583
of people coming in, trying

1319
00:32:08,583 --> 00:32:09,083
the product.

1320
00:32:09,375 --> 00:32:11,041
But really, it's obvious to me

1321
00:32:11,041 --> 00:32:12,750
now, in hindsight, that we

1322
00:32:12,750 --> 00:32:13,375
should have been trying to get

1323
00:32:13,375 --> 00:32:14,375
them to convert to paid.

1324
00:32:14,458 --> 00:32:15,541
Because if they had been

1325
00:32:15,541 --> 00:32:16,833
converting to paid, that would

1326
00:32:16,833 --> 00:32:18,416
have told me, given me, like,

1327
00:32:18,500 --> 00:32:19,083
the real data.

1328
00:32:19,250 --> 00:32:20,166
Like, what matters, what

1329
00:32:20,166 --> 00:32:20,583
doesn't.

1330
00:32:20,875 --> 00:32:21,791
Because without that, we were

1331
00:32:21,791 --> 00:32:22,666
just kind of building

1332
00:32:22,666 --> 00:32:23,833
everything that we thought

1333
00:32:23,833 --> 00:32:24,625
looked cool.

1334
00:32:24,833 --> 00:32:26,083
That was shiny and fun.

1335
00:32:26,250 --> 00:32:27,458
And that, like, every user

1336
00:32:27,458 --> 00:32:28,208
would have, like, a feature

1337
00:32:28,208 --> 00:32:28,875
request, and we'd be like,

1338
00:32:28,875 --> 00:32:29,875
yes, let's do that one.

1339
00:32:31,166 --> 00:32:33,458
I'm definitely positive that I

1340
00:32:33,458 --> 00:32:34,458
was getting advice that this

1341
00:32:34,458 --> 00:32:35,666
was a bad way to do this.

1342
00:32:35,833 --> 00:32:36,833
But then, again, it's hard to

1343
00:32:36,833 --> 00:32:38,625
know what advice to take

1344
00:32:38,625 --> 00:32:40,166
seriously when you have no

1345
00:32:40,166 --> 00:32:41,875
good compass of your own, and

1346
00:32:41,875 --> 00:32:43,166
no way of, like, evaluating

1347
00:32:43,166 --> 00:32:44,750
what are your experiments,

1348
00:32:44,875 --> 00:32:46,708
what are you trying to aim

1349
00:32:46,708 --> 00:32:47,083
for.

1350
00:32:47,666 --> 00:32:49,500
And so, I kind of meandered

1351
00:32:49,500 --> 00:32:50,916
along with this version of the

1352
00:32:50,916 --> 00:32:51,541
product.

1353
00:32:52,500 --> 00:32:54,250
We raised another round of

1354
00:32:54,250 --> 00:32:55,458
capital, actually, with that

1355
00:32:55,458 --> 00:32:55,791
product.

1356
00:32:55,791 --> 00:32:56,958
Because I was able to show,

1357
00:32:57,041 --> 00:32:58,000
like, hey, like, we have a lot

1358
00:32:58,000 --> 00:32:58,416
of users.

1359
00:32:58,500 --> 00:32:59,333
We have a lot of people that,

1360
00:32:59,375 --> 00:33:00,375
like, tried the product, and

1361
00:33:00,375 --> 00:33:01,833
they, like, like it, they use

1362
00:33:01,833 --> 00:33:02,125
it.

1363
00:33:02,833 --> 00:33:03,833
And I don't think any of those

1364
00:33:03,833 --> 00:33:05,166
users, we were a completely

1365
00:33:05,166 --> 00:33:06,166
free service as well.

1366
00:33:06,250 --> 00:33:06,916
So, we didn't even have

1367
00:33:06,916 --> 00:33:08,166
freemium, we were just free.

1368
00:33:08,875 --> 00:33:10,750
And if I, I think if we had

1369
00:33:10,750 --> 00:33:11,666
tried to get those people to

1370
00:33:11,666 --> 00:33:13,625
convert to paid, like, none of

1371
00:33:13,625 --> 00:33:14,708
them or very few of them would

1372
00:33:14,708 --> 00:33:15,208
have.

1373
00:33:15,333 --> 00:33:16,875
And I knew that then, so

1374
00:33:16,875 --> 00:33:18,125
that's why I didn't try to,

1375
00:33:18,208 --> 00:33:19,416
like, emphasize, like, let's

1376
00:33:19,416 --> 00:33:20,541
convert to premium.

1377
00:33:21,125 --> 00:33:22,625
And I was still able to raise

1378
00:33:22,625 --> 00:33:24,375
money, which was so amazing,

1379
00:33:24,375 --> 00:33:26,666
because that was still before

1380
00:33:26,666 --> 00:33:29,583
ChatGPT, but, like, open, we

1381
00:33:29,583 --> 00:33:30,916
were already using OpenAI's

1382
00:33:30,916 --> 00:33:31,916
API at that time.

1383
00:33:32,333 --> 00:33:33,916
And so, like, I think the

1384
00:33:33,916 --> 00:33:34,958
appetite had already been

1385
00:33:34,958 --> 00:33:36,250
changing a little bit, and it

1386
00:33:36,250 --> 00:33:37,375
was still an exciting space.

1387
00:33:37,458 --> 00:33:38,250
I think I was still an

1388
00:33:38,250 --> 00:33:40,416
exciting founder to be

1389
00:33:40,416 --> 00:33:42,458
investing in, and we did have

1390
00:33:42,458 --> 00:33:43,750
these usage metrics.

1391
00:33:43,958 --> 00:33:45,166
And so, I got another round of

1392
00:33:45,166 --> 00:33:46,291
funding, again, this was

1393
00:33:46,291 --> 00:33:47,958
before the venture market

1394
00:33:47,958 --> 00:33:49,125
switched again.

1395
00:33:49,458 --> 00:33:50,500
Because today, the venture

1396
00:33:50,500 --> 00:33:52,083
market is very, very focused

1397
00:33:52,083 --> 00:33:52,791
on profitability.

1398
00:33:53,083 --> 00:33:55,833
It's also post-ChatGPT, so it

1399
00:33:55,833 --> 00:33:57,458
is easier than ever to build

1400
00:33:57,458 --> 00:33:59,000
prototypes that solve people's

1401
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:00,458
real problems, that there are

1402
00:34:00,458 --> 00:34:01,791
great solutions for it.

1403
00:34:01,833 --> 00:34:03,833
Just being a ChatGPT wrapper

1404
00:34:03,833 --> 00:34:06,000
isn't enough to get you a lot

1405
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:07,375
of really amazing customers

1406
00:34:07,375 --> 00:34:07,916
out there.

1407
00:34:08,291 --> 00:34:09,708
And so, the venture market has

1408
00:34:09,708 --> 00:34:11,541
radically shifted between

1409
00:34:11,541 --> 00:34:13,250
where it was when I raised my

1410
00:34:13,250 --> 00:34:14,375
last round and where it is

1411
00:34:14,375 --> 00:34:14,791
today.

1412
00:34:14,958 --> 00:34:16,000
And I'm not trying to raise,

1413
00:34:16,291 --> 00:34:17,250
fundraise any time soon,

1414
00:34:17,333 --> 00:34:18,875
because I have a much better

1415
00:34:18,875 --> 00:34:20,583
sense of, like, what are the

1416
00:34:20,583 --> 00:34:21,833
metrics that actually matter.

1417
00:34:22,083 --> 00:34:23,333
No, that's so great.

1418
00:34:23,458 --> 00:34:25,958
I think, you know, with where

1419
00:34:25,958 --> 00:34:28,250
you've gotten to, and it's

1420
00:34:28,250 --> 00:34:29,875
amazing to hear that even over

1421
00:34:29,875 --> 00:34:30,958
the years, it's sort of taken

1422
00:34:30,958 --> 00:34:32,000
you to this place to get to.

1423
00:34:32,750 --> 00:34:33,791
You know, is that your...

1424
00:34:33,791 --> 00:34:34,500
do you feel like

1425
00:34:34,500 --> 00:34:35,333
you've kind of hit

1426
00:34:35,333 --> 00:34:36,041
your one

1427
00:34:36,041 --> 00:34:38,041
where you're already sort of,

1428
00:34:38,583 --> 00:34:41,791
a flat, stable plateau and you

1429
00:34:41,791 --> 00:34:43,333
can, and you can sort of think

1430
00:34:43,333 --> 00:34:45,291
and, and grow from here, or do

1431
00:34:45,291 --> 00:34:46,208
you feel like you're, you're

1432
00:34:46,208 --> 00:34:47,958
getting close to it or where,

1433
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:49,041
where are you in, in that

1434
00:34:49,041 --> 00:34:49,583
journey?

1435
00:34:49,791 --> 00:34:51,666
Yeah, I think we're finally

1436
00:34:51,666 --> 00:34:52,625
getting closer to it.

1437
00:34:52,666 --> 00:34:53,541
I wouldn't say that we're at

1438
00:34:53,541 --> 00:34:53,833
one.

1439
00:34:53,916 --> 00:34:55,291
I think what one would mean to

1440
00:34:55,291 --> 00:34:57,250
me personally is that we are

1441
00:34:57,250 --> 00:34:59,458
profitable and we are stable.

1442
00:34:59,666 --> 00:35:01,291
And if we could continue the

1443
00:35:01,291 --> 00:35:04,208
business on just at that level

1444
00:35:04,208 --> 00:35:05,375
without having to put more

1445
00:35:05,375 --> 00:35:08,000
product research or more R and

1446
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:09,375
D or more hires or anything,

1447
00:35:09,375 --> 00:35:10,833
like we could stay where we

1448
00:35:10,833 --> 00:35:12,333
are and be profitable and be a

1449
00:35:12,333 --> 00:35:14,625
business for the rest of time,

1450
00:35:14,625 --> 00:35:16,541
like that would feel more like

1451
00:35:16,541 --> 00:35:18,333
one to me, but I feel like

1452
00:35:18,333 --> 00:35:19,958
we're finally getting close to

1453
00:35:19,958 --> 00:35:20,291
that.

1454
00:35:20,291 --> 00:35:21,541
Like we finally have real

1455
00:35:21,541 --> 00:35:22,625
revenue coming in.

1456
00:35:22,708 --> 00:35:23,666
We have a real software

1457
00:35:23,666 --> 00:35:24,416
solution.

1458
00:35:24,500 --> 00:35:26,583
We have a real service that

1459
00:35:26,583 --> 00:35:27,541
we're providing to our

1460
00:35:27,541 --> 00:35:28,041
clients.

1461
00:35:28,625 --> 00:35:30,208
And more often than not, I get

1462
00:35:30,208 --> 00:35:31,666
on a sales call and the client

1463
00:35:31,666 --> 00:35:33,125
is excited to convert on the

1464
00:35:33,125 --> 00:35:33,541
sales call.

1465
00:35:33,666 --> 00:35:34,791
Like we're starting to feel

1466
00:35:34,791 --> 00:35:35,375
that energy.

1467
00:35:35,416 --> 00:35:36,666
We're starting to see those

1468
00:35:36,666 --> 00:35:37,166
results.

1469
00:35:37,666 --> 00:35:39,833
And so it's very clear to me

1470
00:35:39,833 --> 00:35:41,833
now that I'm here, what this

1471
00:35:41,833 --> 00:35:42,916
feels like and what it should

1472
00:35:42,916 --> 00:35:44,000
have felt like back then.

1473
00:35:44,333 --> 00:35:45,791
And I guess like to all the

1474
00:35:45,791 --> 00:35:46,583
founders who are listening,

1475
00:35:46,666 --> 00:35:47,666
who are in that like earlier

1476
00:35:47,666 --> 00:35:48,875
stage, we're still trying to

1477
00:35:48,875 --> 00:35:50,125
figure out how to get to zero

1478
00:35:50,125 --> 00:35:50,416
to one.

1479
00:35:50,458 --> 00:35:51,791
Cause I feel like I'm, I'm

1480
00:35:51,791 --> 00:35:53,125
finally at a place where I can

1481
00:35:53,125 --> 00:35:54,916
see one at the end of the

1482
00:35:54,916 --> 00:35:56,416
tunnel and now I just have to

1483
00:35:56,416 --> 00:35:57,666
kind of execute to get there.

1484
00:35:57,833 --> 00:35:59,666
I think what I needed to hear

1485
00:35:59,666 --> 00:36:00,833
back then, and maybe this will

1486
00:36:00,833 --> 00:36:01,791
be helpful to other founders

1487
00:36:01,791 --> 00:36:03,125
out there today, is that like,

1488
00:36:03,208 --> 00:36:04,541
you have to focus on sales

1489
00:36:04,541 --> 00:36:05,583
calls and you have to be

1490
00:36:05,583 --> 00:36:06,750
selling something that you

1491
00:36:06,750 --> 00:36:08,916
don't have, because that is

1492
00:36:08,916 --> 00:36:10,166
the only thing that will tell

1493
00:36:10,166 --> 00:36:12,083
you what is truly valuable to

1494
00:36:12,083 --> 00:36:12,583
a customer.

1495
00:36:13,083 --> 00:36:14,833
And you have to manually do

1496
00:36:14,833 --> 00:36:16,375
things sometimes in order to

1497
00:36:16,375 --> 00:36:18,083
like get to that next level.

1498
00:36:18,333 --> 00:36:19,666
And I actually saw a really

1499
00:36:19,666 --> 00:36:21,333
interesting post by Rob

1500
00:36:21,333 --> 00:36:23,208
Snyder, who writes a lot about

1501
00:36:23,208 --> 00:36:24,541
the PMF journey and the zero

1502
00:36:24,541 --> 00:36:26,916
to one journey about how

1503
00:36:26,916 --> 00:36:28,541
really until you have a

1504
00:36:28,541 --> 00:36:30,375
hundred K in ARR, you probably

1505
00:36:30,375 --> 00:36:31,333
shouldn't even be building a

1506
00:36:31,333 --> 00:36:31,708
product.

1507
00:36:31,750 --> 00:36:32,916
Like you should be using that

1508
00:36:32,916 --> 00:36:35,000
first hundred K of ARR

1509
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:36,875
customers to help you define

1510
00:36:36,875 --> 00:36:38,375
what is the product and how

1511
00:36:38,375 --> 00:36:38,916
should it work?

1512
00:36:39,041 --> 00:36:40,750
Because at that point, you're

1513
00:36:40,750 --> 00:36:42,875
just kind of throwing paper at

1514
00:36:42,875 --> 00:36:44,083
a wall and seeing what sits.

1515
00:36:44,416 --> 00:36:46,041
And when you get to a hundred

1516
00:36:46,041 --> 00:36:48,250
K ARR, you, you can finally be

1517
00:36:48,250 --> 00:36:48,583
confident.

1518
00:36:48,583 --> 00:36:50,250
Like, Hey, I found a client

1519
00:36:50,250 --> 00:36:51,291
profile that's working.

1520
00:36:51,375 --> 00:36:53,000
I found a problem space that

1521
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:53,458
is working.

1522
00:36:53,791 --> 00:36:55,041
Now I can start thinking about

1523
00:36:55,041 --> 00:36:56,583
how do I scale this to get to

1524
00:36:56,583 --> 00:36:57,500
a million ARR?

1525
00:36:58,666 --> 00:37:00,250
Yeah, no, that's, that's great

1526
00:37:00,250 --> 00:37:00,583
advice.

1527
00:37:00,583 --> 00:37:01,416
Cause also when you're

1528
00:37:01,416 --> 00:37:02,791
starting out, even if you've

1529
00:37:02,791 --> 00:37:03,791
got a great idea and you're

1530
00:37:03,791 --> 00:37:04,708
like, I think this is going to

1531
00:37:04,708 --> 00:37:05,541
work, I think that's going to

1532
00:37:05,541 --> 00:37:05,791
work.

1533
00:37:05,916 --> 00:37:07,500
And, and especially if, you

1534
00:37:07,500 --> 00:37:08,291
know, for founders that are

1535
00:37:08,291 --> 00:37:09,833
bootstrapped also, you know,

1536
00:37:09,833 --> 00:37:11,000
that are, that are starting to

1537
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:12,666
put whatever capital they have

1538
00:37:12,666 --> 00:37:14,375
or even early angel funds into

1539
00:37:14,375 --> 00:37:14,666
something.

1540
00:37:14,666 --> 00:37:16,125
If it's, if it's too much

1541
00:37:16,125 --> 00:37:17,916
towards a direction without

1542
00:37:17,916 --> 00:37:19,625
that, that feedback, even if,

1543
00:37:19,875 --> 00:37:21,416
I think what I'm also taking

1544
00:37:21,416 --> 00:37:22,458
from, from what you're saying

1545
00:37:22,458 --> 00:37:23,625
before that a hundred ARR,

1546
00:37:23,625 --> 00:37:25,083
even if some of that is, is

1547
00:37:25,083 --> 00:37:26,791
manual sort of magic behind

1548
00:37:26,791 --> 00:37:28,625
scenes, that you're, you're

1549
00:37:28,625 --> 00:37:30,291
delivering something you're,

1550
00:37:30,416 --> 00:37:31,875
you're really testing against

1551
00:37:31,875 --> 00:37:33,916
that, the potential for

1552
00:37:33,916 --> 00:37:36,250
that service to be much easier

1553
00:37:36,250 --> 00:37:37,666
that I, that a customer would

1554
00:37:37,666 --> 00:37:39,166
part with their money to be

1555
00:37:39,166 --> 00:37:40,833
like, yes, please, I will take

1556
00:37:40,833 --> 00:37:41,000
that.

1557
00:37:41,458 --> 00:37:43,000
And then sort of start to

1558
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:44,291
build the elegant machine

1559
00:37:44,291 --> 00:37:45,125
behind that.

1560
00:37:45,166 --> 00:37:46,500
Once you've, once you've

1561
00:37:46,500 --> 00:37:48,125
developed that, that sort of

1562
00:37:48,125 --> 00:37:49,958
stronger trend toward a

1563
00:37:49,958 --> 00:37:50,958
hypothesis that you think is

1564
00:37:50,958 --> 00:37:51,375
going to work.

1565
00:37:51,833 --> 00:37:53,041
I think that's exactly right.

1566
00:37:53,041 --> 00:37:53,958
And I wish I had learned that

1567
00:37:53,958 --> 00:37:54,416
earlier.

1568
00:37:54,833 --> 00:37:55,875
And I also think like this

1569
00:37:55,875 --> 00:37:57,083
works really well for

1570
00:37:57,083 --> 00:37:59,041
bootstrap founders because you

1571
00:37:59,041 --> 00:38:01,833
can start selling and making

1572
00:38:01,833 --> 00:38:03,416
real money before you even

1573
00:38:03,416 --> 00:38:05,833
raise any funds and it gives

1574
00:38:05,833 --> 00:38:08,375
you even better leverage point

1575
00:38:08,375 --> 00:38:09,458
when you go out to talk to

1576
00:38:09,458 --> 00:38:10,416
investors, because you have

1577
00:38:10,416 --> 00:38:12,000
real money behind your data.

1578
00:38:12,208 --> 00:38:12,625
Yeah.

1579
00:38:12,625 --> 00:38:13,000
Wow.

1580
00:38:13,125 --> 00:38:14,000
That's, that's so great.

1581
00:38:14,541 --> 00:38:17,083
So what is, so you've,

1582
00:38:17,333 --> 00:38:18,750
let's say you're, you're one

1583
00:38:18,750 --> 00:38:19,625
is in sight.

1584
00:38:19,666 --> 00:38:20,958
It is on the horizon.

1585
00:38:21,083 --> 00:38:22,791
You're feeling, you're feeling

1586
00:38:22,791 --> 00:38:24,166
a little more, you, you still

1587
00:38:24,166 --> 00:38:27,333
have the productive

1588
00:38:27,333 --> 00:38:29,375
jitters that keep things, keep

1589
00:38:29,375 --> 00:38:30,541
things going, but you're

1590
00:38:30,541 --> 00:38:31,250
feeling a little more

1591
00:38:31,250 --> 00:38:32,041
confident about things.

1592
00:38:32,500 --> 00:38:34,291
What do you, what do you

1593
00:38:34,291 --> 00:38:36,791
imagine is just beyond the one

1594
00:38:36,791 --> 00:38:38,083
when you start to get

1595
00:38:38,083 --> 00:38:39,750
this sort of growth curve that,

1596
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:41,625
that you're the,

1597
00:38:41,708 --> 00:38:42,625
the rocket ship is

1598
00:38:42,625 --> 00:38:43,416
starting to take off.

1599
00:38:43,916 --> 00:38:44,500
What do you

1600
00:38:44,500 --> 00:38:46,291
envision for the company at

1601
00:38:46,291 --> 00:38:46,833
that point?

1602
00:38:47,333 --> 00:38:48,916
If we have like a real hockey

1603
00:38:48,916 --> 00:38:52,125
stick growth, I think the

1604
00:38:52,125 --> 00:38:54,583
way that I think of the

1605
00:38:54,583 --> 00:38:55,875
early stage, like the zero to

1606
00:38:55,875 --> 00:38:56,875
one journey, which is like

1607
00:38:56,875 --> 00:38:58,666
really precedes seed is like,

1608
00:38:58,666 --> 00:38:59,625
you're just trying to find

1609
00:38:59,625 --> 00:39:01,708
that customer profile and

1610
00:39:01,708 --> 00:39:02,666
you're trying to find that

1611
00:39:02,666 --> 00:39:05,291
product that serves them.

1612
00:39:05,291 --> 00:39:07,166
And then you raise a series a,

1613
00:39:07,333 --> 00:39:08,583
because you've proven it out

1614
00:39:08,583 --> 00:39:09,750
for a specific customer

1615
00:39:09,750 --> 00:39:11,250
profile with a specific type

1616
00:39:11,250 --> 00:39:13,041
of product and service and,

1617
00:39:13,041 --> 00:39:14,666
like maybe bare minimum

1618
00:39:14,666 --> 00:39:15,083
marketing.

1619
00:39:15,333 --> 00:39:16,958
And really the series a is

1620
00:39:16,958 --> 00:39:18,291
about expanding in that one

1621
00:39:18,291 --> 00:39:18,583
market.

1622
00:39:18,708 --> 00:39:20,041
It's about taking the new

1623
00:39:20,041 --> 00:39:21,166
funds that you've raised and

1624
00:39:21,166 --> 00:39:22,458
like scaling your go to market

1625
00:39:22,458 --> 00:39:25,041
and having this flywheel

1626
00:39:25,041 --> 00:39:26,125
already built out where, you

1627
00:39:26,125 --> 00:39:28,250
know, Hey, if I reach out in

1628
00:39:28,250 --> 00:39:29,250
this way to this type of

1629
00:39:29,250 --> 00:39:31,083
customer, 80% of the time or

1630
00:39:31,083 --> 00:39:32,291
20% of the time, this will

1631
00:39:32,291 --> 00:39:33,375
convert into.
to a sale.

1632
00:39:33,708 --> 00:39:34,958
And so if I just put in more

1633
00:39:34,958 --> 00:39:36,916
funding into the type of

1634
00:39:36,916 --> 00:39:38,291
marketing messaging that we're

1635
00:39:38,291 --> 00:39:39,666
already using, we're going to

1636
00:39:39,666 --> 00:39:40,958
get just, we're just going to

1637
00:39:40,958 --> 00:39:42,750
10 X this or 15 X this or

1638
00:39:42,750 --> 00:39:43,083
whatever.

1639
00:39:43,250 --> 00:39:44,375
And so that's what the series

1640
00:39:44,375 --> 00:39:45,291
a is really about.

1641
00:39:45,375 --> 00:39:46,416
It's about taking something

1642
00:39:46,416 --> 00:39:47,583
that's already working and

1643
00:39:47,583 --> 00:39:49,916
just throwing fire,

1644
00:39:50,041 --> 00:39:51,000
throwing Kindle on the fire

1645
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:53,333
and series B is like, okay,

1646
00:39:53,333 --> 00:39:54,166
it's working for this one

1647
00:39:54,166 --> 00:39:54,541
industry.

1648
00:39:54,708 --> 00:39:55,708
It's for working for this one

1649
00:39:55,708 --> 00:39:56,458
customer profile.

1650
00:39:56,750 --> 00:39:58,250
Like let's raise more money

1651
00:39:58,250 --> 00:39:59,375
and like started looking at

1652
00:39:59,375 --> 00:40:00,375
other customer profiles that

1653
00:40:00,375 --> 00:40:01,916
are adjacent to this one that

1654
00:40:01,916 --> 00:40:03,166
we can start to expand out to.

1655
00:40:03,291 --> 00:40:04,708
And let's do that again for

1656
00:40:04,708 --> 00:40:06,625
these other adjacent areas and

1657
00:40:06,625 --> 00:40:08,000
adjacent customer profiles.

1658
00:40:08,375 --> 00:40:10,500
And so that's how I see the

1659
00:40:10,500 --> 00:40:11,583
progression of most early

1660
00:40:11,583 --> 00:40:13,500
stage companies to that series

1661
00:40:13,500 --> 00:40:14,125
B stage.

1662
00:40:14,208 --> 00:40:15,750
And I'm assuming that'll be

1663
00:40:15,750 --> 00:40:17,333
where we can go as well,

1664
00:40:17,375 --> 00:40:17,625
hopefully.

1665
00:40:18,875 --> 00:40:19,041
Yeah.

1666
00:40:19,458 --> 00:40:19,916
Amazing.

1667
00:40:20,375 --> 00:40:22,416
Well, I can't wait to,, I

1668
00:40:22,416 --> 00:40:23,875
want to set up time,

1669
00:40:23,875 --> 00:40:24,875
because as I've looked

1670
00:40:24,875 --> 00:40:26,208
through, what's already

1671
00:40:26,208 --> 00:40:28,000
does, and I've actually, you

1672
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:28,666
know,I have,

1673
00:40:29,291 --> 00:40:29,958
I have team

1674
00:40:29,958 --> 00:40:31,416
members that helped me

1675
00:40:31,416 --> 00:40:32,666
we're very distributed

1676
00:40:32,666 --> 00:40:33,750
team, but I have team members

1677
00:40:33,750 --> 00:40:34,166
help me.

1678
00:40:35,125 --> 00:40:35,958
I've gotten very

1679
00:40:35,958 --> 00:40:37,458
good at superhuman and I've

1680
00:40:37,458 --> 00:40:38,416
got like very good at my

1681
00:40:38,416 --> 00:40:39,583
calendar, but it's also one of

1682
00:40:39,583 --> 00:40:41,083
those things that sometimes

1683
00:40:41,083 --> 00:40:43,375
it's just a deluge and you're

1684
00:40:43,375 --> 00:40:45,750
just like, I just need a

1685
00:40:45,750 --> 00:40:47,041
couple hours with headphones

1686
00:40:47,041 --> 00:40:49,541
to try and like sort out this

1687
00:40:49,541 --> 00:40:50,083
mess.

1688
00:40:50,333 --> 00:40:51,708
So I'm really excited to,

1689
00:40:51,708 --> 00:40:53,000
to try it.

1690
00:40:54,416 --> 00:40:55,208
And I love

1691
00:40:55,208 --> 00:40:55,916
what you're building because I

1692
00:40:55,916 --> 00:40:57,708
think it's, it's also got such

1693
00:40:57,708 --> 00:41:00,166
great, I think as we've

1694
00:41:00,166 --> 00:41:01,541
gotten remote that you've also

1695
00:41:01,541 --> 00:41:03,291
got so many, so many different

1696
00:41:03,291 --> 00:41:04,541
people, founders, you know,

1697
00:41:04,583 --> 00:41:06,291
are great example, executives

1698
00:41:06,291 --> 00:41:07,833
that are, that are starting to

1699
00:41:07,833 --> 00:41:09,375
try and figure out those ways

1700
00:41:09,375 --> 00:41:10,375
that we're not doing the old

1701
00:41:10,375 --> 00:41:12,375
way of trying to just like

1702
00:41:12,375 --> 00:41:14,333
brute force, get to inbox zero

1703
00:41:14,333 --> 00:41:15,583
and to try and get a calendar

1704
00:41:15,583 --> 00:41:18,583
that it has enough empty brain

1705
00:41:18,583 --> 00:41:20,000
space that I can actually sort

1706
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:21,375
of think and create and

1707
00:41:21,375 --> 00:41:23,250
strategize versus just like

1708
00:41:23,250 --> 00:41:24,208
tackling fires.

1709
00:41:25,666 --> 00:41:27,000
So, and I think it's only

1710
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:28,250
going to get, it's only going

1711
00:41:28,250 --> 00:41:29,708
to get worse also from

1712
00:41:29,708 --> 00:41:31,750
a data overwhelmed perspective

1713
00:41:31,750 --> 00:41:33,916
of just so many things.

1714
00:41:34,041 --> 00:41:35,708
So, I think it's such a

1715
00:41:35,708 --> 00:41:37,041
great solution that you

1716
00:41:37,041 --> 00:41:37,541
all are building.

1717
00:41:38,083 --> 00:41:38,583
Thank you so much.

1718
00:41:38,708 --> 00:41:38,833
Yeah.

1719
00:41:38,875 --> 00:41:40,000
I mean, that's exactly what we

1720
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:41,625
do for our clients right now.

1721
00:41:41,625 --> 00:41:42,666
So they're all like small

1722
00:41:42,666 --> 00:41:43,583
business owners or

1723
00:41:43,583 --> 00:41:44,875
solopreneurs or freelancers

1724
00:41:44,875 --> 00:41:46,625
and they have their own

1725
00:41:46,625 --> 00:41:48,666
businesses and they've tried

1726
00:41:48,666 --> 00:41:49,875
hiring like virtual assistants

1727
00:41:49,875 --> 00:41:51,750
offshore to like manage, but

1728
00:41:51,750 --> 00:41:52,875
they don't have that trust or

1729
00:41:52,875 --> 00:41:54,500
the quality that they need

1730
00:41:54,500 --> 00:41:55,000
necessarily.

1731
00:41:55,250 --> 00:41:56,041
And they've tried these AI

1732
00:41:56,041 --> 00:41:58,625
solutions in silos and

1733
00:41:58,625 --> 00:42:00,000
none of those solutions are

1734
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:01,500
handling all of the edge cases

1735
00:42:01,500 --> 00:42:02,166
that they need, right?

1736
00:42:02,208 --> 00:42:02,916
Because the automation can

1737
00:42:02,916 --> 00:42:04,041
only take you so far.

1738
00:42:04,208 --> 00:42:05,208
And so what we're trying to do

1739
00:42:05,208 --> 00:42:06,375
at Smarty is do this

1740
00:42:06,375 --> 00:42:07,916
combination of human and AI

1741
00:42:07,916 --> 00:42:09,458
employees all in one spot.

1742
00:42:09,791 --> 00:42:11,458
And so for our clients,

1743
00:42:11,458 --> 00:42:12,583
they deal with one customer

1744
00:42:12,583 --> 00:42:13,750
success manager who kind of

1745
00:42:13,750 --> 00:42:15,541
understands their needs, what

1746
00:42:15,541 --> 00:42:16,250
they're trying to do with

1747
00:42:16,250 --> 00:42:17,500
their business, and then they

1748
00:42:17,500 --> 00:42:18,750
work to help them set up those

1749
00:42:18,750 --> 00:42:20,708
systems and then delegate to a

1750
00:42:20,708 --> 00:42:22,250
backend team of our own

1751
00:42:22,250 --> 00:42:23,458
automation, automation tools

1752
00:42:23,458 --> 00:42:24,458
that are already out there.

1753
00:42:24,583 --> 00:42:25,916
And then our own team of

1754
00:42:25,916 --> 00:42:26,958
virtual assistants that we've

1755
00:42:26,958 --> 00:42:27,875
already vetted, that we've

1756
00:42:27,875 --> 00:42:29,208
already managed the quality

1757
00:42:29,208 --> 00:42:30,000
and trust around.

1758
00:42:30,291 --> 00:42:31,375
And so kind of providing this

1759
00:42:31,375 --> 00:42:33,666
like one-stop shop, chief

1760
00:42:33,666 --> 00:42:35,625
operational officer using AI

1761
00:42:35,625 --> 00:42:36,500
and automation.

1762
00:42:36,500 --> 00:42:36,958
That's amazing.

1763
00:42:37,208 --> 00:42:38,166
That's so great.

1764
00:42:38,708 --> 00:42:39,666
It's like magic.

1765
00:42:40,416 --> 00:42:41,958
That's so much fun.

1766
00:42:42,416 --> 00:42:43,083
Cool.

1767
00:42:43,208 --> 00:42:44,791
So let's look into the

1768
00:42:44,791 --> 00:42:46,125
future is that as the last

1769
00:42:46,125 --> 00:42:47,958
question, you know, as, as we

1770
00:42:47,958 --> 00:42:49,333
sort of wrap this up, it's

1771
00:42:49,333 --> 00:42:51,458
like, let's fast

1772
00:42:51,458 --> 00:42:51,875
forward.

1773
00:42:52,250 --> 00:42:53,791
You've gotten to

1774
00:42:53,791 --> 00:42:54,791
series a, you've gotten to

1775
00:42:54,791 --> 00:42:56,166
series B you're now

1776
00:42:56,166 --> 00:42:57,375
scaling into different

1777
00:42:57,375 --> 00:42:58,541
verticals and different areas.

1778
00:43:01,375 --> 00:43:02,458
You know, it's, I think

1779
00:43:02,458 --> 00:43:03,833
back how different it is and

1780
00:43:03,833 --> 00:43:05,333
maybe it's just how

1781
00:43:05,333 --> 00:43:06,333
my brain works, but I think

1782
00:43:06,333 --> 00:43:08,333
back to like my dad and my

1783
00:43:08,333 --> 00:43:10,166
granddad's era of, of the sort

1784
00:43:10,166 --> 00:43:11,791
of standard, like get the 60

1785
00:43:11,791 --> 00:43:14,000
or 65 and retire or, you know,

1786
00:43:14,083 --> 00:43:15,791
find a quiet place to read a

1787
00:43:15,791 --> 00:43:16,916
book or whatever it is.

1788
00:43:17,333 --> 00:43:19,291
Can you see yourself where,

1789
00:43:19,291 --> 00:43:20,166
like, where do you see

1790
00:43:20,166 --> 00:43:22,208
yourself in, in that sort of,

1791
00:43:22,291 --> 00:43:24,583
you know, 30, 40 years

1792
00:43:24,583 --> 00:43:25,125
from now?

1793
00:43:25,291 --> 00:43:27,750
and what do you see

1794
00:43:27,750 --> 00:43:28,791
as your,

1795
00:43:30,875 --> 00:43:33,166
the place where you feel like

1796
00:43:33,166 --> 00:43:34,875
you've accomplished, but also

1797
00:43:34,875 --> 00:43:36,166
would you keep

1798
00:43:36,166 --> 00:43:36,541
going?

1799
00:43:36,625 --> 00:43:37,875
Would you sort of take a break

1800
00:43:37,875 --> 00:43:39,333
or like what, where do

1801
00:43:39,333 --> 00:43:40,041
you see yourself in the

1802
00:43:40,041 --> 00:43:40,291
future?

1803
00:43:40,708 --> 00:43:42,166
It's funny because if I think

1804
00:43:42,166 --> 00:43:43,208
back to that, like existential

1805
00:43:43,208 --> 00:43:44,458
crisis that I had in business

1806
00:43:44,458 --> 00:43:45,333
school, where I was like, what

1807
00:43:45,333 --> 00:43:46,625
do I want to do for the rest

1808
00:43:46,625 --> 00:43:47,125
of my life?

1809
00:43:47,625 --> 00:43:49,000
Smarty was the answer back

1810
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:49,250
then.

1811
00:43:49,250 --> 00:43:51,166
And it really hasn't changed.

1812
00:43:51,375 --> 00:43:53,500
And in hindsight, it's really

1813
00:43:53,500 --> 00:43:55,125
obvious to me that I used a

1814
00:43:55,125 --> 00:43:56,291
practice that I didn't really

1815
00:43:56,291 --> 00:43:57,333
know at the time.

1816
00:43:57,625 --> 00:43:59,166
But like now I know like

1817
00:43:59,166 --> 00:44:00,625
has like a real name to it,

1818
00:44:00,625 --> 00:44:02,083
which is like the Japanese

1819
00:44:02,083 --> 00:44:03,458
concept of IKIGAI about

1820
00:44:03,458 --> 00:44:04,458
finding something that you're

1821
00:44:04,458 --> 00:44:05,083
passionate about,

1822
00:44:05,083 --> 00:44:06,125
that you're skilled at,

1823
00:44:06,125 --> 00:44:07,083
that is good for the community

1824
00:44:07,083 --> 00:44:08,041
and that allows you to like,

1825
00:44:08,041 --> 00:44:09,750
have an impact and make money.

1826
00:44:09,750 --> 00:44:11,750
And I feel like even then

1827
00:44:11,750 --> 00:44:13,625
I knew that Smarty was that for me.

1828
00:44:13,625 --> 00:44:14,625
And I,

1829
00:44:14,625 --> 00:44:16,000
I feel like having gone

1830
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:17,125
through that exercise,

1831
00:44:17,125 --> 00:44:18,125
it's really had,

1832
00:44:18,125 --> 00:44:19,958
a standing power through time,

1833
00:44:19,958 --> 00:44:20,958
because I still feel that way

1834
00:44:20,958 --> 00:44:21,625
today.

1835
00:44:21,625 --> 00:44:23,083
And I hope that in 30,

1836
00:44:23,083 --> 00:44:23,791
40 years,

1837
00:44:23,791 --> 00:44:24,791
I still feel the same

1838
00:44:24,791 --> 00:44:25,833
level of passion

1839
00:44:25,833 --> 00:44:26,916
at that next stage,

1840
00:44:26,916 --> 00:44:27,875
because the challenges

1841
00:44:27,875 --> 00:44:29,666
change at every stage.

1842
00:44:29,666 --> 00:44:30,750
And so I'm hoping that

1843
00:44:30,750 --> 00:44:32,041
I'll still be this excited

1844
00:44:32,041 --> 00:44:33,708
and this passionate about

1845
00:44:33,708 --> 00:44:34,875
pursuing this vision.

1846
00:44:34,958 --> 00:44:35,666
Amazing.

1847
00:44:35,666 --> 00:44:37,208
Well, congratulations

1848
00:44:37,208 --> 00:44:38,541
on finding your ikigai.

1849
00:44:38,541 --> 00:44:39,750
Thank you.

1850
00:44:39,750 --> 00:44:41,458
that's so great.

1851
00:44:41,458 --> 00:44:42,125
Well, I can't

1852
00:44:42,125 --> 00:44:43,791
I can't wait to, to try your

1853
00:44:43,791 --> 00:44:45,000
product and also,

1854
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:47,250
to just watch the,

1855
00:44:47,250 --> 00:44:49,291
the Smarty journey, as well.

1856
00:44:49,291 --> 00:44:52,000
So, and so great

1857
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:52,708
and thanks for,

1858
00:44:52,708 --> 00:44:53,583
for the time today.

1859
00:44:53,583 --> 00:44:53,958
Yeah.

1860
00:44:53,958 --> 00:44:55,000
And coming to chat about it.

1861
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:57,000
I hope this is like helpful

1862
00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:58,166
to aspiring founders.

1863
00:44:58,166 --> 00:44:59,916
I think 0 to 1 is

1864
00:44:59,916 --> 00:45:01,250
the hardest stage.

1865
00:45:01,250 --> 00:45:01,875
It really is

1866
00:45:01,875 --> 00:45:02,291
like there's

1867
00:45:02,291 --> 00:45:04,958
just so many unknown unknowns.

1868
00:45:04,958 --> 00:45:06,791
Yeah, exactly.

1869
00:45:06,791 --> 00:45:07,833
amazing.

1870
00:45:07,833 --> 00:45:09,125
Well, it good to see you again.

1871
00:45:09,125 --> 00:45:10,833
Awesome. Thank you so much.

1872
00:45:10,833 --> 00:45:11,541
Bye.