Ben Huffman - Contra

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Ben: Well, according to LinkedIn, I am highly

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Ben: underqualified for my job.

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Ben: I'm just going to build it better and

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Kyle: obviously that's super nice, you became Neo

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Kyle: in that moment and you started seeing like

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Kyle: the matrix lines like falling and you're

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Kyle: like, oh, I can see into the future.

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Ben: And all of a sudden like we're on the other

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Ben: side, we're now Contra is a hot idea.

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Ben: It wasn't hot immediately.

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Ben: And what if it was commission free?

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Ben: What would that look like?

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Ben: And that was the question that we asked and

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Ben: I was like, wow, everyone I told that

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Ben: vision to.

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Ben: They were like you're stupid, like that's a

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Ben: horrible idea.

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Ben: I love the distraction of the resume and

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Ben: what's the point of that right Like why do

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Ben: you have to wear the suit?

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Ben: Why do you have to have it formatted a

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Ben: certain way?

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Ben: It's almost like more of a compliance and a

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Ben: power thing.

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Ben: That is actually helpful.

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Kyle: No, thank you.

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Kyle: This doesn't work for me.

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Kyle: I'm going to leave and not sort of like sit

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Kyle: on the couch wondering where the job is.

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Kyle: I'm just going to make money happen, you

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Kyle: know.

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Ben: Hey, kyle, how's it going, hey, how you

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Ben: doing Pretty good, pretty good.

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Ben: Hold on, let me just get everything sorted.

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Kyle: I love.

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Ben: Riversideide.

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Ben: It's a great, great tools.

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Ben: You can hear me right.

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Ben: Usually, yeah, my music will cut.

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Ben: I think you're all right, okay, sweet yeah,

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Ben: because sm7b.

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Kyle: Uh, it might be.

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Kyle: Yeah, I think we've got.

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Kyle: I think we've got a similar setup here I

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Kyle: dig it yep, yep well, great to yeah.

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Ben: Yeah, good to see you too.

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Ben: I think this is our first time officially

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Ben: uh meeting, but, like, I follow you on

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Ben: twitter, so I'm always like you know, I'm

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Ben: seeing a lot of your tweets and then also,

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Ben: um, you're a contra user, so you've been a

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Ben: user for a long time and I just want to say

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Ben: thank you totally.

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Kyle: I think that's where I think I actually I

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Kyle: think I actually somewhat unprompted used

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Kyle: Contra for the first time and I think I

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Kyle: just like DM'd you on LinkedIn.

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Kyle: I was like, by the way, this thing's great,

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Kyle: so anyways, goodbye, like, because it's

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Kyle: just, it's so great, I just had to put that

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Kyle: out there.

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Ben: You're a connoisseur of products, though,

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Ben: because I've noticed that you are an early

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Ben: adopter to all the best products, and

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Ben: oftentimes I will hear about a product from

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Ben: your tweets and I'll be like, oh yeah,

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Ben: granola is sweet.

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Ben: And then I'll speak when you're passionate

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Ben: about good UX or a good experience.

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Ben: I'm like, oh shit.

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Ben: So it's been pretty cool to kind of follow

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Ben: your creation as well.

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Ben: So I don't know, mutual thank you you.

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Kyle: Yeah, I appreciate it yeah, I basically I

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Kyle: try anything and everything because I just

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Kyle: want to, I want to see the onboarding, I

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Kyle: want to see how that, what's that little

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Kyle: extra special sauce, what's that like?

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Kyle: Why, why does something?

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Kyle: And then also, why does something stick?

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Kyle: Versus why do I sign up and go?

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Kyle: That's pretty cool and then I just never,

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Kyle: never, think about it again.

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Kyle: So, um, I love it, um, amazing.

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Kyle: Well, thanks for for hopping on.

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Kyle: Um, uh, you know, we, we've been rolling,

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Kyle: we, we, we run right into we, we, we start

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Kyle: from the get, go, um, and so I'd love to,

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Kyle: you know, to jump into a few things, but

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Kyle: but I think one of the things that's really

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Kyle: interesting is I go to LinkedIn and I'm

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Kyle: sort of looking back at someone's history

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Kyle: and where they came from.

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Kyle: Yours is basically not on LinkedIn, appears

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Kyle: on LinkedIn as a co-founder, starts a

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Kyle: company, gets acquired and then starts

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Kyle: Contra and Contra takes off like a rocket

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Kyle: ship.

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Kyle: That's the story.

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Kyle: Usually, you're sort of used to like just

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Kyle: all these different sort of like.

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Kyle: So I can't wait to hear about sort of like

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Kyle: you know from early, like you know

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Kyle: pre-write, sort of you know, and how you

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Kyle: got into stuff would be amazing.

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Ben: Well, according to LinkedIn, I am highly

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Ben: underqualified for my you know, if that

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Ben: gives you any you know hint at what's

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Ben: coming next and like why Contra exists.

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Ben: But you know, man, I have been obsessed

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Ben: with the internet and computers since I was,

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Ben: since I can remember.

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Ben: So I grew up in my parents.

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Ben: My parents ran a small business in South

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Ben: Carolina and I grew up in their office

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Ben: using some of the first computers, like

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Ben: dial up, you know, using typewriters, copy

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Ben: machines, dial-up modems, first versions of

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Ben: the internet.

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Kyle: I miss that sound.

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Kyle: By the way, when it connects that like

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Kyle: screechy sound.

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Kyle: It was so satisfying.

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Ben: It exposes to it, for sure, but I really

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Ben: also appreciate that we can have this

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Ben: conversation in high-def, like 4K, totally.

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Ben: So you know, I was obsessed with computers.

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Ben: Like I found the internet and I was like,

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Ben: wow, I'm in this rural part of the U?

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Ben: S and there's not a lot of stuff, there's

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Ben: not a lot going on, right.

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Ben: But on the internet you're connected to the

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Ben: whole world and I remember some of the

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Ben: initial applications I was obsessed with

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Ben: were things like Google earth and I was

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Ben: like wait a second, I can zoom in and look

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Ben: at satellite images of places that I didn't

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Ben: even know existed.

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Ben: I was blown away by that and so, thanks,

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Ben: thanks to my dad, I built my first computer,

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Ben: uh, from components.

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Ben: Um, he had a friend who was like really

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Ben: into kind of like building computers from

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Ben: scratch out of his garage, like nothing too

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Ben: fancy, but he kind of knew the ins and outs.

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Ben: I built my first computer trying to like

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Ben: make it like you know some of the like, one

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Ben: of the first like Nvidia, kind of like

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Ben: graphics cards, right, where you would just

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Ben: like pop it into a motherboard, like kind

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Ben: of old school.

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Ben: I built this gaming PC and I all of a

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Ben: sudden discovered the internet and from

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Ben: there I got into everything creative like

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Ben: Photoshop, music production, video editing,

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Ben: all the things, website creation, website

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Ben: design, and so I kind of upskilled as like

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Ben: this kind of self-taught, you know, product

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Ben: of the internet.

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Ben: You know, I was educated via forums and

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Ben: YouTube and I learned all these different

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Ben: skills and I actually got into the creative

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Ben: industry and technology as a music producer

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Ben: and a lot of people.

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Ben: But I was, um, I was a bedroom like

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Ben: producer, right, I would just make beats

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Ben: for fun.

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Ben: It was.

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Ben: I think it was like one of my creative

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Ben: outlets as a kid, cause there's not a lot

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Ben: of stuff to do in South Carolina, great

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Ben: place, horribly boring.

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Ben: Um, I would, I would make you know, I would

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Ben: like download.

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Ben: You remember, you probably remember like

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Ben: LimeWire and all these different oh yeah,

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Ben: kazaa, and like you know wherever you could

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Ben: get your hands on that beat that you wanted

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Ben: totally, and sometimes it was like you

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Ben: would find things that you didn't know you

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Ben: wanted right and like music from different

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Ben: cultures and like things that you wouldn't

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Ben: hear on your radio vocal radio station.

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Ben: You're like whoa, that's crazy.

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Ben: And so I kind of had this like weird

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Ben: influence from like the music world and for

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Ben: some reason I like to produce music that

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Ben: was very similar to the kind of sounds of

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Ben: the UK, like garage, like drum and bass,

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Ben: like house kind of like that kind of synth

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Ben: pop style.

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Ben: And so when I moved to New York I met an

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Ben: A&R producer who worked at a label and the

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Ben: label had just gotten acquired by Sony and

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Ben: all of a sudden this music producer is now

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Ben: ghostwriting for Sony and I get a contract

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Ben: and I'm like what am I doing here, what and

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Ben: like?

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Ben: So all of a sudden, like I'm a knowledge

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Ben: worker and I can make money with my skills

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Ben: and that was a huge turning point in my

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Ben: life.

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Ben: So the TLDR, love computers, love the

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Ben: internet I've always been obsessed with

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Ben: like networks and being able to connect

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Ben: with others and the influence that brings

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Ben: culturally got into music, upskilled, and

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Ben: from there I learned about graphic design

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Ben: and, like you know, actually meeting

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Ben: professional graphic designers and

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Ben: videographers and all the creative people

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Ben: who were the best at what they did, because

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Ben: they were working for all these cool

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Ben: artists.

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Ben: And I realized that, like all these people

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Ben: who were the best at what they did, because

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Ben: they were working for all these cool

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Ben: artists, and I realized that, like all

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Ben: these people who were the best at what they

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Ben: did, they were all working for themselves

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Ben: whenever the fuck they wanted, right, like

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Ben: they were just doing their own thing.

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Ben: And I was like, whoa, that's cool.

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Ben: And I had dropped out of school, right.

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Ben: So I was imposter syndrome through the roof,

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Ben: like I had no credentials.

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Ben: I was like I'm probably not good enough,

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Ben: like I'm probably just going to be doing

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Ben: these like service jobs, like bartender or

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Ben: whatever, whatever I can get my hands on.

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Ben: I tried everything.

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Ben: And then finally, like I was like, oh wait,

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Ben: but I'm also really good at computers.

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Ben: I just don't have any credentials.

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Ben: And so you can kind of see how this, this

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Ben: kind of, leads you to what Contra is today.

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Ben: But you know, started my first company,

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Ben: scaled it with freelancers because it was

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Ben: bootstrapped, used every single platform

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Ben: Upwork, it was Elance and Odesk before

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Ben: Upwork, right.

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Kyle: I think you remember that.

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Ben: And then I never actually used Fiverr.

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Ben: I always thought that was kind of like the

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Ben: brand kind of scared me away.

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Ben: But then some of the higher end

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Ben: marketplaces, there was this one called

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Ben: Crewco.

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Ben: I don know if you remember this, if you

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Ben: remember, like, do you do you know the

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Ben: unsplash team?

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Ben: They were the ones who did like the royalty

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Ben: free, like yeah, yeah oh, totally.

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Kyle: We just in, we just literally are pushing,

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Kyle: uh, an integration into stack list right

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Kyle: now, where you basically, if you don't have

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Kyle: a thumbnail, you can just grab an unsplash

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Kyle: and put it incredibly, yeah, incredible.

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Ben: Okay.

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Ben: So their team had this like marketplace

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Ben: called crewco.

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Ben: That was like, I think, actually Unsplash

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Ben: spun out of the crew and they have this

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Ben: coworking space in Montreal.

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Ben: It's really cool.

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Ben: It's really cool, like, really beautiful.

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Ben: It's this old bank building right in like

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Ben: old Montreal and they had this awesome,

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Ben: like beautifully, like minimally designed,

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Ben: you know, kind of similar to like Contra's

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Ben: design now, and you could find like the

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Ben: best designers, the best engineers on this

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Ben: marketplace, and so I had a team based in

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Ben: Kiev, ukraine, and so I actually had a

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Ben: temporary office there and I'd fly back and

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Ben: forth and then we'd had some designers on

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Ben: the West Coast and so I was kind of a power

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Ben: user of this product and I was like, wow,

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Ben: this is amazing, what a great experience.

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Ben: Beautifully designed, excellent talent.

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Ben: It was very frictionless.

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Ben: It felt frictionless, this product, and I

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Ben: was like, wow, this is amazing, what a

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Ben: great experience.

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Ben: Um, beautifully designed, excellent talent,

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Ben: it was very frictionless, it felt

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Ben: frictionless, um, and then all of a sudden,

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Ben: like you've used dribble before right yep

289
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Ben: okay, like dribble was really really great

290
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Ben: back in the day, like you could go on

291
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Ben: dribble and find the best of the best.

292
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Ben: It's like whoa, like what is that?

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Ben: You know?

294
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Kyle: totally.

295
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Kyle: And then just reach out to them and go, hey,

296
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Kyle: I've got a thing and they're like, sure,

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Kyle: I'm into it, that was the behavior, right,

298
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Kyle: that's what we were all doing.

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Ben: And so one day I get this notice, this

300
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Ben: email from Crew saying, hey, we just got

301
00:10:15,964 --> 00:10:16,725
Ben: acquired by Dribbble.

302
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Ben: And I was like, oh my God, this is amazing.

303
00:10:19,310 --> 00:10:21,734
Ben: There's this network that's going to have

304
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Ben: this marketplace infrastructure and all my

305
00:10:24,598 --> 00:10:26,322
Ben: problems as a small business owner are

306
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Ben: going to go away.

307
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Ben: This is going to be the perfect product.

308
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Ben: I am so excited for this.

309
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Ben: Anyway, that didn't work out and I think it

310
00:10:34,389 --> 00:10:35,913
Ben: was like within a couple of months, to like

311
00:10:35,980 --> 00:10:38,326
Ben: hey, didn't go so well, we're shutting down.

312
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Ben: Crew, you got to get your contracts off our

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Ben: platform.

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Kyle: And I was like what the hell I was

315
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Kyle: basically all messed up.

316
00:10:42,946 --> 00:10:43,307
Ben: I was pissed off.

317
00:10:43,327 --> 00:10:43,869
Ben: I was like what the hell?

318
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Ben: I was basically, oh, messed up.

319
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Ben: I was pissed off.

320
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Ben: I was like, anyway, I had a conversation

321
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Ben: with the person who actually made that

322
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Ben: decision and there was a lot of stuff

323
00:10:51,602 --> 00:10:52,926
Ben: behind the scenes and ultimately, it was

324
00:10:52,966 --> 00:10:54,330
Ben: probably the right decision at the time.

325
00:10:54,881 --> 00:10:57,748
Ben: But as for, like you know this, like young,

326
00:10:57,868 --> 00:10:59,572
Ben: younger version of me, I was like pissed.

327
00:10:59,612 --> 00:11:01,002
Ben: I was like you took away this thing.

328
00:11:01,102 --> 00:11:02,665
Ben: I'm using it like what the hell?

329
00:11:02,806 --> 00:11:06,313
Ben: Yeah, and so that is how contra was born.

330
00:11:06,674 --> 00:11:07,722
Ben: Like I'm not even joking.

331
00:11:08,103 --> 00:11:10,388
Ben: Like that day was the day that was like hey,

332
00:11:11,590 --> 00:11:12,572
Ben: what the hell just happened?

333
00:11:12,653 --> 00:11:14,684
Ben: Like we, this is going to be a massive

334
00:11:14,744 --> 00:11:14,984
Ben: thing.

335
00:11:15,084 --> 00:11:16,548
Ben: Like everyone's going to work this way.

336
00:11:16,989 --> 00:11:19,222
Ben: Yeah, everyone like it's, it's, this is

337
00:11:19,242 --> 00:11:19,984
Ben: just the future.

338
00:11:20,747 --> 00:11:21,891
Ben: You had this great thing.

339
00:11:22,071 --> 00:11:22,693
Ben: You killed it.

340
00:11:23,657 --> 00:11:24,966
Kyle: I'm just going to build it better and

341
00:11:25,088 --> 00:11:27,084
Kyle: obviously that's super you became neo in

342
00:11:27,104 --> 00:11:29,049
Kyle: that moment and you started seeing like the

343
00:11:29,069 --> 00:11:31,361
Kyle: matrix lines like falling and you're like,

344
00:11:31,862 --> 00:11:35,149
Kyle: oh, I can see into the future that was that

345
00:11:35,169 --> 00:11:35,449
Kyle: cool.

346
00:11:35,469 --> 00:11:37,614
Ben: But, like, I like to think sometimes, like

347
00:11:37,660 --> 00:11:39,285
Ben: I can imagine if I, if I squint hard enough,

348
00:11:39,325 --> 00:11:40,609
Ben: I'm like it's blurry enough, I'm like, yeah,

349
00:11:40,629 --> 00:11:41,781
Ben: I kind of look like that, but like

350
00:11:42,462 --> 00:11:44,005
Ben: something like that, and I was just upset.

351
00:11:44,445 --> 00:11:46,709
Ben: And so here we are, uh, with contra, and so

352
00:11:47,910 --> 00:11:48,291
Ben: the tl.

353
00:11:48,331 --> 00:11:50,654
Ben: I mean, think about it like linkedin

354
00:11:50,755 --> 00:11:54,009
Ben: doesn't tell you what someone can do, it

355
00:11:54,049 --> 00:11:55,996
Ben: tells you what they have fun, right, like

356
00:11:56,056 --> 00:11:57,581
Ben: when you go to my profile, you're probably

357
00:11:57,621 --> 00:11:59,346
Ben: like, what is this person done?

358
00:11:59,407 --> 00:11:59,808
Ben: Like what?

359
00:11:59,848 --> 00:12:00,430
Ben: Like, where is he?

360
00:12:00,450 --> 00:12:00,811
Ben: Where is he?

361
00:12:00,831 --> 00:12:01,802
Ben: Was he like a consultant?

362
00:12:01,862 --> 00:12:02,643
Ben: Was he like do you work?

363
00:12:02,663 --> 00:12:03,264
Ben: You work in finance?

364
00:12:03,304 --> 00:12:04,927
Ben: What's this background?

365
00:12:05,528 --> 00:12:07,532
Ben: But, like, the reality is I can produce

366
00:12:07,733 --> 00:12:11,460
Ben: music, I can edit videos, I can do cool

367
00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,086
Ben: graphic design, I can ideate on pitch decks,

368
00:12:14,206 --> 00:12:16,532
Ben: I can do business strategy, I can do growth

369
00:12:16,552 --> 00:12:18,804
Ben: strategy All of these things that I find

370
00:12:18,864 --> 00:12:20,730
Ben: super valuable when I talk to other people

371
00:12:21,501 --> 00:12:23,385
Ben: you would never know from my LinkedIn.

372
00:12:24,167 --> 00:12:27,814
Ben: And so, like, contra start is this idea of

373
00:12:27,860 --> 00:12:29,323
Ben: like, hey, like, how do we make a better

374
00:12:30,525 --> 00:12:32,810
Ben: network for this new way of working?

375
00:12:33,431 --> 00:12:36,604
Ben: And then it's evolved to this thing where

376
00:12:36,644 --> 00:12:38,467
Ben: it's like whoa, like professional identity

377
00:12:38,508 --> 00:12:41,354
Ben: is changing, like we don't really care.

378
00:12:41,801 --> 00:12:42,824
Ben: I mean maybe some people do.

379
00:12:42,864 --> 00:12:44,328
Ben: I think it's still like an old world, like

380
00:12:44,349 --> 00:12:44,649
Ben: Spignol.

381
00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:47,685
Kyle: Like what I think it's.

382
00:12:47,706 --> 00:12:47,948
Kyle: I think it's.

383
00:12:47,968 --> 00:12:49,000
Kyle: I think it's changing so much that I think

384
00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:50,321
Kyle: I think over the past five years it's

385
00:12:50,381 --> 00:12:52,443
Kyle: changed away from that Like I think Google

386
00:12:52,463 --> 00:12:54,182
Kyle: and some of those started it, but it's less

387
00:12:54,243 --> 00:12:55,721
Kyle: about just show me what you can do, like if

388
00:12:55,741 --> 00:12:58,109
Kyle: you can prove that you, you could be 12,

389
00:13:00,070 --> 00:13:01,751
Kyle: but you can get in, like you know, and you

390
00:13:01,771 --> 00:13:03,772
Kyle: can just render like crazy 3d, great, I'm

391
00:13:03,792 --> 00:13:04,633
Kyle: gonna pay you to do that.

392
00:13:04,693 --> 00:13:06,094
Kyle: Like I don't, I don't even care what your

393
00:13:06,134 --> 00:13:07,695
Kyle: resume looks like, and that just.

394
00:13:07,735 --> 00:13:11,157
Kyle: I love the destruction of the resume in

395
00:13:11,197 --> 00:13:12,978
Kyle: that way where it's like you remember how

396
00:13:13,018 --> 00:13:13,258
Kyle: it had.

397
00:13:13,278 --> 00:13:15,004
Kyle: I mean it had to be formatted the exact

398
00:13:15,044 --> 00:13:16,270
Kyle: right way and it had to like.

399
00:13:16,571 --> 00:13:18,419
Kyle: You had to, like you had to go in and I

400
00:13:18,459 --> 00:13:20,263
Kyle: remember going to early interviews and my

401
00:13:20,383 --> 00:13:22,186
Kyle: suit and like you're like, you're like

402
00:13:22,226 --> 00:13:24,030
Kyle: sitting there and your slacks and you're

403
00:13:24,050 --> 00:13:26,033
Kyle: like really prepared for it and how

404
00:13:26,073 --> 00:13:27,135
Kyle: literally you can send.

405
00:13:27,636 --> 00:13:29,400
Kyle: I've done it before where I've had periods

406
00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,005
Kyle: where I build and my wife and I build and

407
00:13:32,025 --> 00:13:35,052
Kyle: design websites and somebody goes I want

408
00:13:35,212 --> 00:13:37,024
Kyle: one, and I send them three links and I go

409
00:13:37,064 --> 00:13:38,849
Kyle: we built these and they're like great, I

410
00:13:38,889 --> 00:13:39,611
Kyle: want one of those.

411
00:13:39,731 --> 00:13:42,547
Kyle: That's the interview process and that's

412
00:13:42,587 --> 00:13:43,389
Kyle: where we're getting to.

413
00:13:43,449 --> 00:13:43,710
Kyle: You know.

414
00:13:44,693 --> 00:13:47,701
Ben: Yep, and what's the point of that right

415
00:13:47,741 --> 00:13:49,106
Ben: Like why do you have to wear the suit, why

416
00:13:49,126 --> 00:13:50,642
Ben: do you have to have it formatted a certain

417
00:13:50,682 --> 00:13:50,843
Ben: way?

418
00:13:50,883 --> 00:13:53,073
Ben: It's almost like more of a compliance and a

419
00:13:53,113 --> 00:13:56,769
Ben: power thing that is actually helpful.

420
00:13:56,789 --> 00:13:58,475
Kyle: You couldn't prove yourself In an interview

421
00:13:58,536 --> 00:13:59,620
Kyle: as an accountant or a lawyer.

422
00:13:59,820 --> 00:14:02,206
Kyle: You can't go in and prove yourself to what

423
00:14:02,246 --> 00:14:04,070
Kyle: you can do until you actually get in there

424
00:14:04,111 --> 00:14:04,832
Kyle: and do the thing.

425
00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:11,645
Kyle: But as knowledge workers, when we think

426
00:14:11,685 --> 00:14:13,651
Kyle: about like creating video editing or like

427
00:14:13,671 --> 00:14:14,674
Kyle: photo or writing or whatever, I can sort of

428
00:14:14,694 --> 00:14:16,379
Kyle: take this thing and have it speak for me,

429
00:14:16,399 --> 00:14:16,840
Kyle: or I can have a list.

430
00:14:16,860 --> 00:14:18,828
Kyle: I mean, I just love the contract portfolio.

431
00:14:18,848 --> 00:14:21,057
Kyle: It's like being able to have that as such a

432
00:14:21,418 --> 00:14:22,843
Kyle: billboard for yourself with the

433
00:14:22,883 --> 00:14:24,669
Kyle: recommendations and your top and you've

434
00:14:24,689 --> 00:14:25,561
Kyle: done this and you've done that.

435
00:14:26,002 --> 00:14:28,428
Kyle: Immediately you sort of wipe away all that

436
00:14:28,568 --> 00:14:31,021
Kyle: sort of like who is this person and can

437
00:14:31,041 --> 00:14:31,684
Kyle: they do that?

438
00:14:32,105 --> 00:14:34,053
Kyle: And it immediately cuts to like oh yeah,

439
00:14:34,074 --> 00:14:35,299
Kyle: this is the person that I want to.

440
00:14:35,439 --> 00:14:36,141
Kyle: I want to hire for this.

441
00:14:36,181 --> 00:14:38,246
Kyle: That's which is great you get it.

442
00:14:38,487 --> 00:14:40,011
Ben: I mean that's, and like, that makes me

443
00:14:40,051 --> 00:14:41,421
Ben: happy that you see this.

444
00:14:42,122 --> 00:14:43,304
Ben: You see this because I think you've lived

445
00:14:43,344 --> 00:14:43,805
Ben: it as well.

446
00:14:44,266 --> 00:14:46,189
Kyle: Right, you're a creative yourself, you're a

447
00:14:46,229 --> 00:14:48,913
Kyle: builder, you produce things what I've been,

448
00:14:48,954 --> 00:14:50,361
Kyle: I've been living this life for, for you

449
00:14:50,402 --> 00:14:52,166
Kyle: know, my, my first job was I.

450
00:14:52,547 --> 00:14:53,930
Kyle: We have such a similar background.

451
00:14:53,970 --> 00:14:54,672
Kyle: It's so amazing.

452
00:14:54,752 --> 00:14:56,566
Kyle: I basically I bought a computer from from a

453
00:14:56,586 --> 00:14:58,935
Kyle: kid down the street when I was like 14.

454
00:14:58,955 --> 00:15:02,585
Kyle: It was an 8086 luggable, it weighed like 60

455
00:15:02,645 --> 00:15:04,710
Kyle: pounds, it was known as a laptop at the

456
00:15:04,750 --> 00:15:07,023
Kyle: time, you know, but like, and it had DOS.

457
00:15:07,524 --> 00:15:09,669
Kyle: But I remember very specifically running

458
00:15:09,729 --> 00:15:11,520
Kyle: downstairs I'm like mom, there's this thing

459
00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:12,702
Kyle: called email.

460
00:15:13,363 --> 00:15:17,550
Kyle: You can send a note from here to Japan for

461
00:15:17,791 --> 00:15:20,055
Kyle: free and it goes instantly.

462
00:15:20,115 --> 00:15:21,643
Kyle: And she's like yeah, yeah, yeah, like, eat

463
00:15:21,663 --> 00:15:22,124
Kyle: your peas.

464
00:15:22,465 --> 00:15:22,946
Kyle: You know what I mean.

465
00:15:22,986 --> 00:15:24,589
Kyle: Like, just, I don't, whatever.

466
00:15:24,809 --> 00:15:26,373
Kyle: And then, of course, fast forward like 20

467
00:15:26,393 --> 00:15:26,733
Kyle: years later.

468
00:15:26,773 --> 00:15:27,595
Kyle: She's like yeah, yeah, yeah, like, eat your

469
00:15:27,615 --> 00:15:27,695
Kyle: peas.

470
00:15:27,715 --> 00:15:28,116
Kyle: You know what I mean.

471
00:15:28,136 --> 00:15:28,657
Kyle: Like, just, I don't whatever.

472
00:15:28,677 --> 00:15:29,539
Kyle: And then, of course, fast forward, like 20

473
00:15:29,559 --> 00:15:29,780
Kyle: years later.

474
00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,241
Kyle: She's like can you help me with my hotmail?

475
00:15:32,261 --> 00:15:33,342
Kyle: I can't really get into it, but like, but

476
00:15:33,362 --> 00:15:34,823
Kyle: that sort of sparked that same thing and I

477
00:15:34,923 --> 00:15:36,545
Kyle: basically, because I knew that I, I went.

478
00:15:36,605 --> 00:15:37,866
Kyle: I was junior year of college.

479
00:15:37,886 --> 00:15:39,969
Kyle: I went to two years of college at a

480
00:15:40,089 --> 00:15:40,729
Kyle: university of Alabama.

481
00:15:40,809 --> 00:15:41,951
Kyle: I didn't, that wasn't for me.

482
00:15:42,011 --> 00:15:43,472
Kyle: Then I went to one year at Georgia State.

483
00:15:43,572 --> 00:15:46,055
Kyle: I was a junior level computer class.

484
00:15:46,555 --> 00:15:47,796
Kyle: They said today they handed out the

485
00:15:47,816 --> 00:15:48,177
Kyle: syllabus.

486
00:15:48,197 --> 00:15:49,303
Kyle: And they said today we're going to learn

487
00:15:49,323 --> 00:15:50,165
Kyle: Microsoft Word.

488
00:15:50,406 --> 00:15:51,830
Kyle: And I stood up and I never went back to

489
00:15:51,870 --> 00:15:52,111
Kyle: school.

490
00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,667
Kyle: And um, and I met someone who was selling

491
00:15:55,707 --> 00:15:58,072
Kyle: web hosting at Interland, which turned into

492
00:15:58,092 --> 00:16:00,605
Kyle: webcom, yeah, and I went and interviewed.

493
00:16:00,645 --> 00:16:01,689
Kyle: They said what, what do you know about

494
00:16:01,709 --> 00:16:01,969
Kyle: sales?

495
00:16:02,010 --> 00:16:09,121
Kyle: And I was like, oh nothing.

496
00:16:09,141 --> 00:16:11,246
Kyle: They're like what do you know about web

497
00:16:11,266 --> 00:16:11,627
Kyle: hosting?

498
00:16:11,907 --> 00:16:12,830
Kyle: And I said, oh nothing.

499
00:16:12,850 --> 00:16:14,373
Kyle: Somehow I talked my way into that job and

500
00:16:14,394 --> 00:16:14,634
Kyle: did amazing.

501
00:16:14,694 --> 00:16:16,398
Kyle: But then I got to that point in corporate

502
00:16:16,438 --> 00:16:18,846
Kyle: where it was basically like I was 21.

503
00:16:19,006 --> 00:16:20,391
Kyle: I said I want to talk about management.

504
00:16:20,612 --> 00:16:23,501
Kyle: And my boss said to me you're only 21.

505
00:16:23,541 --> 00:16:24,744
Kyle: You don't need to worry about management.

506
00:16:25,345 --> 00:16:27,429
Kyle: And I typed out a resignation letter and I

507
00:16:28,191 --> 00:16:35,041
Kyle: gave it to her and I left that job, even

508
00:16:35,061 --> 00:16:35,885
Kyle: though I was making money hand over fist.

509
00:16:35,905 --> 00:16:36,327
Kyle: And long story short.

510
00:16:36,347 --> 00:16:37,050
Kyle: But I'll tell you how we get to.

511
00:16:37,070 --> 00:16:38,014
Kyle: Contra is basically I was at a bar with a

512
00:16:38,034 --> 00:16:39,039
Kyle: friend and I heard a guy next to me this

513
00:16:39,059 --> 00:16:41,586
Kyle: must have been 2001, 2000, 2001.

514
00:16:42,027 --> 00:16:43,470
Kyle: And a guy next to me was a consultant.

515
00:16:43,510 --> 00:16:44,773
Kyle: I was overhearing his conversation.

516
00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:46,605
Kyle: He was like I guess I got to get one of

517
00:16:46,625 --> 00:16:47,689
Kyle: those website things.

518
00:16:47,850 --> 00:16:50,119
Kyle: And I was like oh, websites, yeah, I'll

519
00:16:50,139 --> 00:16:50,721
Kyle: build one for you.

520
00:16:50,761 --> 00:16:52,689
Kyle: And I had never built a website, I'd never

521
00:16:52,930 --> 00:16:54,577
Kyle: like, I'd never coded or anything.

522
00:16:54,657 --> 00:16:55,961
Kyle: He was like okay, great, how much.

523
00:16:56,783 --> 00:17:00,151
Kyle: I said five thousand dollars and he was

524
00:17:00,171 --> 00:17:01,273
Kyle: like cool, let me go to my car and get my

525
00:17:01,340 --> 00:17:02,603
Kyle: checkpoint, I'll give you the first half

526
00:17:02,683 --> 00:17:04,146
Kyle: and then you can like start in on it.

527
00:17:04,968 --> 00:17:07,172
Kyle: So the next day I had to go to start like

528
00:17:07,192 --> 00:17:10,329
Kyle: Barnes and Nobles, and I got HTML4 and CSS3.

529
00:17:10,681 --> 00:17:12,842
Kyle: I'm like I got to learn this and I taught

530
00:17:12,862 --> 00:17:14,348
Kyle: myself at Starbucks and then I gave it to

531
00:17:14,368 --> 00:17:14,428
Kyle: him.

532
00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:16,166
Kyle: He gave me the other $2,500.

533
00:17:16,186 --> 00:17:16,909
Kyle: And I was like you know what?

534
00:17:29,306 --> 00:17:32,036
Kyle: From this point on, I've had a 23 year

535
00:17:32,076 --> 00:17:34,063
Kyle: career of basically working for big

536
00:17:34,103 --> 00:17:35,807
Kyle: companies and doing stuff for Google and

537
00:17:35,847 --> 00:17:36,589
Kyle: Spotify and others.

538
00:17:36,970 --> 00:17:38,424
Kyle: But whenever I reach that ceiling or

539
00:17:38,484 --> 00:17:40,351
Kyle: something, just like I'm not learning

540
00:17:40,391 --> 00:17:43,322
Kyle: enough, I leave and I started doing my own

541
00:17:43,363 --> 00:17:45,717
Kyle: thing and and it and it's platforms like

542
00:17:45,737 --> 00:17:47,486
Kyle: Contra that give you that ability to

543
00:17:47,526 --> 00:17:49,113
Kyle: basically have the freedom to be like.

544
00:17:49,656 --> 00:17:50,138
Kyle: No, thank you.

545
00:17:50,279 --> 00:17:51,081
Kyle: This doesn't work for me.

546
00:17:51,522 --> 00:17:53,387
Kyle: I'm going to leave and not sort of like sit

547
00:17:53,427 --> 00:17:55,332
Kyle: on the couch wondering where the job is.

548
00:17:55,500 --> 00:17:56,944
Kyle: I'm just going to make money happen, you

549
00:17:56,984 --> 00:17:57,124
Kyle: know.

550
00:17:57,164 --> 00:17:57,344
Kyle: Yes.

551
00:17:58,267 --> 00:17:58,808
Ben: I love that.

552
00:17:58,868 --> 00:18:02,202
Ben: That is such a cool story and I think you

553
00:18:02,222 --> 00:18:03,204
Ben: probably had some insight.

554
00:18:03,264 --> 00:18:04,607
Ben: Right From selling web hosting, you're

555
00:18:04,627 --> 00:18:06,691
Ben: probably like okay, like you know the tools

556
00:18:06,711 --> 00:18:08,374
Ben: to look for, you know like kind of the

557
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:10,846
Ben: basics of like how these like servers

558
00:18:10,926 --> 00:18:12,671
Ben: worked and like what you actually needed

559
00:18:12,691 --> 00:18:14,023
Ben: you to go from point A to point B.

560
00:18:14,063 --> 00:18:15,249
Ben: So you already had that in.

561
00:18:15,611 --> 00:18:16,756
Ben: All you needed was opportunity.

562
00:18:16,877 --> 00:18:18,261
Ben: You just needed something to move in you

563
00:18:18,761 --> 00:18:19,862
Ben: and to give you that kind of first.

564
00:18:19,882 --> 00:18:21,803
Ben: Yes, that's like super inspiring, that's

565
00:18:21,863 --> 00:18:23,004
Ben: like it's pretty.

566
00:18:23,664 --> 00:18:25,346
Kyle: And that's basically what I'm trying really

567
00:18:25,386 --> 00:18:27,347
Kyle: hard to teach my boys is that that, like

568
00:18:27,387 --> 00:18:30,830
Kyle: nonlinear, you know whatever the 80s, 90s

569
00:18:30,910 --> 00:18:33,552
Kyle: and previous version of like you got to get

570
00:18:33,592 --> 00:18:35,073
Kyle: good grades and then you got to go to

571
00:18:35,133 --> 00:18:36,594
Kyle: school and you got to get something.

572
00:18:36,634 --> 00:18:38,335
Kyle: Then you got to have a good resume and then

573
00:18:38,355 --> 00:18:40,457
Kyle: you got to just sort of do junior jobs for

574
00:18:40,497 --> 00:18:42,138
Kyle: like a while and you got to earn your way.

575
00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:46,804
Kyle: You got to climb up that ladder which is

576
00:18:46,824 --> 00:18:47,045
Kyle: all bs like.

577
00:18:47,065 --> 00:18:48,069
Kyle: You can basically like go on free code camp

578
00:18:48,109 --> 00:18:50,719
Kyle: and teach yourself how to do html and put

579
00:18:50,759 --> 00:18:52,463
Kyle: yourself out there and build, build a

580
00:18:52,484 --> 00:18:54,348
Kyle: website for somebody for a hundred bucks.

581
00:18:54,548 --> 00:18:55,050
Kyle: Guess what?

582
00:18:55,110 --> 00:18:58,870
Kyle: You are now a website builder, like, but

583
00:18:58,890 --> 00:19:00,014
Kyle: especially with framer I.

584
00:19:00,054 --> 00:19:01,339
Kyle: What you guys are doing with framer and

585
00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:02,262
Kyle: webflow like I.

586
00:19:02,302 --> 00:19:03,526
Kyle: I just absolutely love framer.

587
00:19:03,586 --> 00:19:05,471
Kyle: Now you don't even really need to know HTML.

588
00:19:06,064 --> 00:19:07,718
Kyle: You can just put the building blocks

589
00:19:07,738 --> 00:19:09,246
Kyle: together for people and do it yourself.

590
00:19:10,201 --> 00:19:12,737
Ben: And I think that is where the next

591
00:19:12,777 --> 00:19:15,243
Ben: generation is going to be so lucky, because

592
00:19:16,027 --> 00:19:19,583
Ben: the friction from taste and imagination to

593
00:19:19,784 --> 00:19:22,326
Ben: actual end product is going to continue to

594
00:19:22,366 --> 00:19:23,048
Ben: just go away.

595
00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:25,367
Ben: Like, if you have imagination and you have

596
00:19:25,290 --> 00:19:25,888
Ben: the creativity, like the things you're

597
00:19:25,811 --> 00:19:26,072
Ben: going to continue to just go away.

598
00:19:25,995 --> 00:19:26,237
Ben: Like, if you have imagination and you have

599
00:19:26,919 --> 00:19:28,423
Ben: the creativity, like the things you're

600
00:19:28,443 --> 00:19:30,368
Ben: going to be able to produce are going to

601
00:19:30,388 --> 00:19:32,072
Ben: become within reach.

602
00:19:32,260 --> 00:19:34,605
Ben: And I think there's going to be a higher

603
00:19:35,306 --> 00:19:37,812
Ben: value placed on creativity and ideas than

604
00:19:37,972 --> 00:19:40,187
Ben: ever before, because now, like you've seen

605
00:19:40,207 --> 00:19:41,956
Ben: this, with, like, generative AI and all

606
00:19:41,996 --> 00:19:43,562
Ben: this stuff that's coming onto the market,

607
00:19:44,383 --> 00:19:46,327
Ben: the floor, right, has raised.

608
00:19:46,508 --> 00:19:48,472
Ben: Everyone can make these crazy videos,

609
00:19:48,572 --> 00:19:50,864
Ben: everyone can make these graphics.

610
00:19:51,326 --> 00:19:54,154
Ben: But if the floor raises, what is the

611
00:19:54,194 --> 00:19:55,177
Ben: definition of excellence?

612
00:19:55,558 --> 00:19:57,102
Ben: Right, it's a moving target based on

613
00:19:57,142 --> 00:20:00,669
Ben: context, and so human creativity is going

614
00:20:00,689 --> 00:20:02,072
Ben: to be the differentiation.

615
00:20:02,212 --> 00:20:04,443
Ben: So I feel like the world that we are

616
00:20:04,523 --> 00:20:05,686
Ben: finding ourselves in now.

617
00:20:05,966 --> 00:20:07,670
Ben: Imagine, like our younger selves, right, if

618
00:20:07,710 --> 00:20:09,341
Ben: we were born today, or like if we were

619
00:20:09,461 --> 00:20:11,707
Ben: coming into the workforce today, how much

620
00:20:12,168 --> 00:20:12,990
Ben: better it would be.

621
00:20:13,511 --> 00:20:13,952
Ben: It's crazy.

622
00:20:14,701 --> 00:20:16,986
Kyle: I know my son is is seven.

623
00:20:17,066 --> 00:20:18,449
Kyle: He actually just turned eight today.

624
00:20:18,930 --> 00:20:20,193
Kyle: Um, and he's got an.

625
00:20:20,700 --> 00:20:21,962
Kyle: I mean, I'm just so envious.

626
00:20:22,022 --> 00:20:23,505
Kyle: He's eight years old, he's got a MacBook

627
00:20:23,605 --> 00:20:26,770
Kyle: Air and he's basically like he gets like 30

628
00:20:26,810 --> 00:20:28,894
Kyle: minutes to be able to like play on his Mac

629
00:20:28,974 --> 00:20:31,105
Kyle: Air when he comes home and he does farming

630
00:20:31,125 --> 00:20:31,607
Kyle: simulator.

631
00:20:32,161 --> 00:20:34,270
Kyle: And I come downstairs and he's got that,

632
00:20:34,350 --> 00:20:36,499
Kyle: like you know how you play the games with

633
00:20:36,519 --> 00:20:38,285
Kyle: the keyboard setup where you've got nine

634
00:20:38,325 --> 00:20:40,540
Kyle: different positions for your fingers, and

635
00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:41,943
Kyle: he's like yeah, I just brought the harvest

636
00:20:42,023 --> 00:20:44,106
Kyle: in, I got to go take this wheat and sell it

637
00:20:44,126 --> 00:20:46,190
Kyle: because I really want to get a Ford F-150.

638
00:20:46,470 --> 00:20:48,794
Kyle: You know what I mean and I'm like this is

639
00:20:48,854 --> 00:20:49,415
Kyle: amazing.

640
00:20:58,020 --> 00:20:58,982
Kyle: Like imagine what you can do if you

641
00:20:59,002 --> 00:20:59,885
Kyle: basically have already shortcutted that

642
00:20:59,905 --> 00:21:00,887
Kyle: whole process of like extending yourself

643
00:21:00,907 --> 00:21:01,288
Kyle: into the computer.

644
00:21:01,308 --> 00:21:02,391
Kyle: Now, when you think about what's possible

645
00:21:02,411 --> 00:21:03,714
Kyle: for him, you know it's you've already.

646
00:21:04,015 --> 00:21:05,819
Kyle: You shortcut probably it was probably 10

647
00:21:05,919 --> 00:21:07,867
Kyle: years of what I was like messing with and

648
00:21:07,887 --> 00:21:10,798
Kyle: trying to figure out sounds like he's

649
00:21:10,818 --> 00:21:14,126
Kyle: already a pretty curious, which is he's,

650
00:21:14,306 --> 00:21:15,849
Kyle: he's, he's definitely cut from the same

651
00:21:15,869 --> 00:21:16,110
Kyle: claw.

652
00:21:16,691 --> 00:21:18,281
Kyle: Well, I love, like you know, I'd love to

653
00:21:18,321 --> 00:21:19,906
Kyle: know from the contra perspective, like what

654
00:21:19,946 --> 00:21:21,711
Kyle: was, what was the?

655
00:21:21,812 --> 00:21:24,703
Kyle: So that moment, you know, from, okay, they

656
00:21:24,743 --> 00:21:26,360
Kyle: shut down, we're gonna start something,

657
00:21:26,500 --> 00:21:27,523
Kyle: what is that first week?

658
00:21:28,004 --> 00:21:29,728
Kyle: You know, when they think about my, the

659
00:21:29,768 --> 00:21:32,401
Kyle: whole impetus for for this show is, you

660
00:21:32,441 --> 00:21:33,163
Kyle: know, zero to one.

661
00:21:33,203 --> 00:21:33,684
Kyle: Sounds great.

662
00:21:33,744 --> 00:21:35,929
Kyle: I love that idea, but also, like, I have no

663
00:21:36,010 --> 00:21:38,142
Kyle: idea what one means and it's, you know,

664
00:21:38,202 --> 00:21:39,726
Kyle: maybe different for every person.

665
00:21:40,127 --> 00:21:42,532
Kyle: But, like, when you you get that, I'd love

666
00:21:42,552 --> 00:21:44,827
Kyle: to hear about that moment where you it is

667
00:21:44,867 --> 00:21:45,970
Kyle: it the hairs in the back of your neck?

668
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:48,626
Kyle: You get, you get a, you get a feeling and

669
00:21:48,646 --> 00:21:52,423
Kyle: you're like I'm going to do a thing, like,

670
00:21:52,484 --> 00:21:54,418
Kyle: and then you sort of start down this dark

671
00:21:54,458 --> 00:21:56,346
Kyle: path, like what is, what did that look?

672
00:21:56,366 --> 00:21:57,029
Kyle: Kind of look like.

673
00:21:58,681 --> 00:22:01,907
Ben: You know, I think, because I had

674
00:22:01,988 --> 00:22:08,441
Ben: relationships on these platforms there was

675
00:22:08,461 --> 00:22:09,323
Ben: two groups that were upset right.

676
00:22:09,343 --> 00:22:11,608
Ben: There was me as this kind of person who was

677
00:22:11,648 --> 00:22:14,721
Ben: hiring this team, and then there was the

678
00:22:14,802 --> 00:22:17,087
Ben: team who depended on this platform to earn

679
00:22:17,127 --> 00:22:17,468
Ben: a living.

680
00:22:18,210 --> 00:22:20,363
Ben: And so there's like and all of a sudden you

681
00:22:20,383 --> 00:22:22,321
Ben: have a group of people that are mad, and

682
00:22:22,882 --> 00:22:25,711
Ben: that's when ideas really start floating out.

683
00:22:26,220 --> 00:22:28,163
Ben: So all of a sudden I was like look like,

684
00:22:30,368 --> 00:22:33,595
Ben: this is bad, we're losing this platform, we

685
00:22:33,615 --> 00:22:34,497
Ben: should just build our own.

686
00:22:34,537 --> 00:22:35,967
Ben: And at first they're like I don't know.

687
00:22:36,248 --> 00:22:39,836
Ben: But then we start talking about it and we

688
00:22:39,856 --> 00:22:41,507
Ben: start thinking about what are the problems

689
00:22:41,587 --> 00:22:42,850
Ben: with the existing models?

690
00:22:43,171 --> 00:22:46,298
Ben: What is actually wrong with the status quo?

691
00:22:48,589 --> 00:22:50,292
Ben: Why is Upwork had already been merged by

692
00:22:50,332 --> 00:22:50,512
Ben: then.

693
00:22:50,552 --> 00:22:52,055
Ben: It's like is upwork not great?

694
00:22:52,135 --> 00:22:53,117
Ben: Like, why is?

695
00:22:53,758 --> 00:22:56,268
Ben: Why was crew like good but not amazing?

696
00:22:56,589 --> 00:22:57,751
Ben: You know, like what were the things that

697
00:22:57,771 --> 00:22:58,353
Ben: were missing?

698
00:22:58,734 --> 00:23:02,228
Ben: And I think kind of the initial, kind of

699
00:23:02,348 --> 00:23:04,833
Ben: aha moment was seeing robin hood, if you

700
00:23:04,873 --> 00:23:07,719
Ben: remember, like spitting out and they had

701
00:23:07,805 --> 00:23:08,867
Ben: robin hood and cash app.

702
00:23:09,127 --> 00:23:10,869
Kyle: Both, I would say, were the and and

703
00:23:10,889 --> 00:23:11,450
Kyle: coinbase.

704
00:23:11,550 --> 00:23:16,177
Kyle: Were this like it, was this trio of UI UX

705
00:23:16,437 --> 00:23:19,642
Kyle: that basically made complex simple, which

706
00:23:19,722 --> 00:23:20,763
Kyle: was brilliant.

707
00:23:21,544 --> 00:23:23,611
Ben: Yeah, exactly Like the design was on point.

708
00:23:23,705 --> 00:23:25,153
Ben: There was like these new kind of fintech

709
00:23:25,173 --> 00:23:27,405
Ben: models they were trying to go after.

710
00:23:27,726 --> 00:23:30,030
Ben: But the thing with Robinhood that really

711
00:23:30,090 --> 00:23:33,497
Ben: really stood out is I never really knew

712
00:23:33,557 --> 00:23:34,779
Ben: anything about stocks.

713
00:23:35,566 --> 00:23:38,172
Ben: I never really knew anything about you know

714
00:23:38,312 --> 00:23:40,477
Ben: what it means to build a portfolio?

715
00:23:40,537 --> 00:23:42,148
Ben: Right, I was just like too young and like I

716
00:23:42,168 --> 00:23:43,431
Ben: just didn't really think about those

717
00:23:44,153 --> 00:23:45,556
Ben: concepts at all.

718
00:23:45,597 --> 00:23:47,889
Ben: But all of a sudden they're like oh zero,

719
00:23:47,950 --> 00:23:49,894
Ben: commission trading platform.

720
00:23:49,914 --> 00:23:51,458
Ben: I'm like wait, what do you mean?

721
00:23:51,498 --> 00:23:54,410
Ben: Like what's the alternative?

722
00:23:54,450 --> 00:23:55,652
Ben: Is there like commission on the other, on

723
00:23:55,672 --> 00:23:59,599
Ben: the other thing, except you have to pay for

724
00:23:59,619 --> 00:24:01,369
Ben: this yeah, it's like how is it okay?

725
00:24:01,389 --> 00:24:02,131
Ben: so how does this work?

726
00:24:02,151 --> 00:24:04,597
Ben: So you're okay, so you're democratizing

727
00:24:05,627 --> 00:24:08,853
Ben: access to financial products and

728
00:24:08,934 --> 00:24:10,677
Ben: investments and like, and it's commission

729
00:24:10,697 --> 00:24:10,898
Ben: free.

730
00:24:10,918 --> 00:24:12,547
Ben: And I was like, whoa, then they had this

731
00:24:12,607 --> 00:24:14,251
Ben: crazy wait list and so, like, I joined the

732
00:24:14,271 --> 00:24:15,414
Ben: wait list and then they had this cool

733
00:24:15,474 --> 00:24:16,797
Ben: virality mechanic where I could invite

734
00:24:17,085 --> 00:24:18,870
Ben: others and then I'd move up and down.

735
00:24:18,930 --> 00:24:20,414
Ben: I was like, okay, that's cool.

736
00:24:20,454 --> 00:24:23,387
Ben: I was like, if they can do this for stock

737
00:24:23,447 --> 00:24:27,192
Ben: trading, I can obviously do this for this

738
00:24:27,292 --> 00:24:28,193
Ben: new type of network.

739
00:24:29,255 --> 00:24:29,916
Ben: And I thought deeper.

740
00:24:29,936 --> 00:24:30,616
Ben: I was like, wait a second.

741
00:24:31,778 --> 00:24:34,441
Ben: All the problems that I've had with Elance

742
00:24:42,125 --> 00:24:43,109
Ben: Odesk Crew were around this idea of this

743
00:24:43,129 --> 00:24:43,431
Ben: commission fee.

744
00:24:43,471 --> 00:24:44,334
Ben: Because you know how knowledge work is.

745
00:24:44,375 --> 00:24:45,298
Ben: If you were to hire me to build something

746
00:24:45,319 --> 00:24:46,202
Ben: for you, we're going to have so many

747
00:24:46,263 --> 00:24:46,845
Ben: conversations.

748
00:24:47,505 --> 00:24:49,514
Ben: I need to learn your case, your preferences.

749
00:24:50,056 --> 00:24:51,743
Ben: I need to learn who you are as a person.

750
00:24:51,804 --> 00:24:53,630
Ben: I probably need to know that your son likes

751
00:24:53,690 --> 00:24:54,272
Ben: to play farm simulator games.

752
00:24:54,292 --> 00:24:55,175
Ben: I need to learn who you are as a person.

753
00:24:55,195 --> 00:24:56,158
Ben: I probably need to know that your son likes

754
00:24:56,178 --> 00:24:57,041
Ben: to you know, like play farm simulator games,

755
00:24:57,061 --> 00:24:57,142
Ben: like.

756
00:24:57,162 --> 00:24:58,606
Ben: I need to know these things because we need

757
00:24:58,626 --> 00:25:00,109
Ben: to build trust Right.

758
00:25:00,210 --> 00:25:02,896
Ben: And so, like, one of the biggest problems

759
00:25:02,936 --> 00:25:04,907
Ben: that I had with all these platforms was

760
00:25:04,927 --> 00:25:06,832
Ben: like I would build this trust and I would

761
00:25:07,053 --> 00:25:08,837
Ben: really start caring about the people I'd

762
00:25:08,885 --> 00:25:09,266
Ben: work with.

763
00:25:09,906 --> 00:25:11,489
Ben: It's it's human nature right, you start to

764
00:25:11,549 --> 00:25:13,071
Ben: care about the person on the other side.

765
00:25:13,131 --> 00:25:14,433
Ben: It's not like, right, you start to care

766
00:25:14,453 --> 00:25:15,494
Ben: about the person on the other side.

767
00:25:15,534 --> 00:25:16,876
Ben: It's not like some commoditized thing.

768
00:25:16,996 --> 00:25:17,617
Ben: It's very different.

769
00:25:17,677 --> 00:25:19,560
Ben: It's differentiated service, right, totally.

770
00:25:24,666 --> 00:25:25,791
Ben: And so when you start to care about someone,

771
00:25:25,811 --> 00:25:26,595
Ben: all of a sudden you start to care about

772
00:25:26,616 --> 00:25:26,937
Ben: their conditions.

773
00:25:26,957 --> 00:25:27,781
Ben: You start to care about your conditions,

774
00:25:27,801 --> 00:25:29,107
Ben: and then the moment you realize you're

775
00:25:29,147 --> 00:25:32,196
Ben: paying someone and 20% of the money that

776
00:25:32,216 --> 00:25:34,483
Ben: you're paying them gets taken by the

777
00:25:34,523 --> 00:25:36,551
Ben: platform, you're like, oh wait, this person

778
00:25:36,591 --> 00:25:38,920
Ben: I care about is now losing their money

779
00:25:39,241 --> 00:25:40,846
Ben: because I'm paying them through this thing,

780
00:25:41,467 --> 00:25:43,432
Ben: and so the thing that connected you is no

781
00:25:43,492 --> 00:25:45,276
Ben: longer seen in this.

782
00:25:45,316 --> 00:25:47,246
Ben: Like, oh, thank you for connecting us.

783
00:25:47,306 --> 00:25:49,031
Ben: It's now saying like, hey, you're rent

784
00:25:49,051 --> 00:25:49,372
Ben: seeking.

785
00:25:49,953 --> 00:25:51,818
Ben: You are a parasite on this relationship

786
00:25:56,685 --> 00:25:56,906
Ben: seeking.

787
00:25:56,926 --> 00:25:57,788
Kyle: You are a sharestite on this relationship

788
00:25:57,808 --> 00:25:58,631
Kyle: right and and and a percentage of the

789
00:25:58,651 --> 00:25:59,534
Kyle: people you work with the second or third

790
00:25:59,554 --> 00:26:01,239
Kyle: time are like do you mind if we just like?

791
00:26:01,299 --> 00:26:02,606
Kyle: Can we just not do that so that?

792
00:26:02,686 --> 00:26:03,930
Kyle: I don't, you know what I mean and you're

793
00:26:03,970 --> 00:26:04,994
Kyle: like, wait a second, wait a second.

794
00:26:05,054 --> 00:26:07,629
Kyle: Like this should this should facilitate

795
00:26:07,690 --> 00:26:09,995
Kyle: this, uh, collaboration?

796
00:26:10,155 --> 00:26:11,678
Kyle: It shouldn't be something where you're like,

797
00:26:12,046 --> 00:26:14,210
Kyle: can we just not so that I can, like, keep

798
00:26:14,250 --> 00:26:15,733
Kyle: my money um?

799
00:26:16,274 --> 00:26:17,616
Ben: and you care about that person, right?

800
00:26:17,636 --> 00:26:18,939
Ben: You don't want them to lose money.

801
00:26:18,959 --> 00:26:20,309
Ben: You want them like you learn about their

802
00:26:20,349 --> 00:26:23,242
Ben: family, you learn about their experience,

803
00:26:23,262 --> 00:26:24,045
Ben: their lived experience.

804
00:26:24,065 --> 00:26:25,970
Kyle: You're like, wait, this is a human, this is

805
00:26:26,050 --> 00:26:28,236
Kyle: not a yeah product, they'd be some part of

806
00:26:28,256 --> 00:26:29,872
Kyle: the team, like, especially when you build

807
00:26:29,912 --> 00:26:31,581
Kyle: something, and especially from scratch, and

808
00:26:31,601 --> 00:26:32,948
Kyle: you start working with someone and they

809
00:26:32,988 --> 00:26:35,154
Kyle: sort of become part of the team, then it

810
00:26:35,195 --> 00:26:37,429
Kyle: sort of becomes if it becomes a bit of a

811
00:26:37,529 --> 00:26:38,090
Kyle: barrier.

812
00:26:38,331 --> 00:26:41,017
Kyle: That you're, that, you're like, you know,

813
00:26:41,165 --> 00:26:42,591
Kyle: and I've also felt it too, where some of

814
00:26:42,632 --> 00:26:44,734
Kyle: these I get the idea of safety, where it's

815
00:26:44,754 --> 00:26:46,805
Kyle: like don't communicate off the platform,

816
00:26:47,026 --> 00:26:49,694
Kyle: but also like that's not, that's not going

817
00:26:49,714 --> 00:26:49,975
Kyle: to work.

818
00:26:50,085 --> 00:26:52,354
Kyle: I need to talk to this person like a lot

819
00:26:56,365 --> 00:26:59,251
Kyle: and so like it does become that barrier,

820
00:26:59,292 --> 00:26:59,412
Kyle: right?

821
00:26:59,432 --> 00:27:01,055
Ben: So, exactly Like, these are humans, right,

822
00:27:01,075 --> 00:27:02,719
Ben: they're not just some like resource that

823
00:27:02,745 --> 00:27:04,210
Ben: you're just like oh, let me press this

824
00:27:04,310 --> 00:27:06,598
Ben: button Right, you need to add them to Slack,

825
00:27:06,618 --> 00:27:08,028
Ben: you need to add them to email, to your

826
00:27:08,088 --> 00:27:09,954
Ben: Dropbox, to your Google Drive, whatever.

827
00:27:10,014 --> 00:27:12,047
Ben: Like, there's so many points where, like,

828
00:27:12,067 --> 00:27:13,911
Ben: you have to really embed yourself with them

829
00:27:13,952 --> 00:27:14,613
Ben: and vice versa.

830
00:27:14,693 --> 00:27:17,740
Ben: And so, after week one, I would have people

831
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,446
Ben: on Elance and Odesk saying, because we were

832
00:27:20,486 --> 00:27:21,789
Ben: using Skype back then, I'm sure you

833
00:27:21,809 --> 00:27:24,356
Ben: remember that, can we just go to PayPal?

834
00:27:24,436 --> 00:27:25,646
Ben: I can't afford this.

835
00:27:25,666 --> 00:27:26,789
Ben: Can we split the fees?

836
00:27:26,809 --> 00:27:27,891
Ben: And I'm just right.

837
00:27:28,753 --> 00:27:30,437
Ben: I'm like why is this friction?

838
00:27:30,477 --> 00:27:31,346
Ben: Why is this happening?

839
00:27:31,366 --> 00:27:32,550
Ben: And I was like, okay, I get it, because

840
00:27:32,590 --> 00:27:34,174
Ben: this platform is the only way, this is the

841
00:27:34,215 --> 00:27:34,816
Ben: only way to do this.

842
00:27:34,945 --> 00:27:36,251
Ben: Like there's no other way to do this.

843
00:27:37,085 --> 00:27:38,311
Ben: The internet starts maturing.

844
00:27:38,846 --> 00:27:40,446
Ben: All of a sudden, you have Twitter, you have

845
00:27:40,507 --> 00:27:44,432
Ben: LinkedIn, you have email, you have WhatsApp,

846
00:27:44,512 --> 00:27:46,669
Ben: you have PayPal, you have Stripe, you have

847
00:27:46,769 --> 00:27:49,106
Ben: Wise, you have Venmo, and it's like wait a

848
00:27:49,146 --> 00:27:49,346
Ben: second.

849
00:27:49,366 --> 00:27:52,011
Ben: You have DocuSign, right, like, yeah, your

850
00:27:52,051 --> 00:27:52,873
Ben: portfolio sites.

851
00:27:52,953 --> 00:27:54,115
Ben: Like all of a sudden, you're like wait a

852
00:27:54,155 --> 00:27:54,716
Ben: second, okay.

853
00:27:54,776 --> 00:27:56,579
Ben: Like did I really like?

854
00:27:56,620 --> 00:27:57,902
Ben: Okay, I discovered this person on this

855
00:27:57,942 --> 00:28:00,491
Ben: platform, but there is no way I'm keeping

856
00:28:00,531 --> 00:28:02,879
Ben: it there and like, when you reverse, near

857
00:28:02,939 --> 00:28:05,346
Ben: that, you look at all the product decisions

858
00:28:05,446 --> 00:28:09,193
Ben: a company has to make in order to keep that

859
00:28:09,253 --> 00:28:12,559
Ben: model, so like they're 100% incentivized to

860
00:28:12,625 --> 00:28:15,374
Ben: make the client and the freelancer connect

861
00:28:15,434 --> 00:28:16,828
Ben: and transact and that's it.

862
00:28:17,028 --> 00:28:19,573
Ben: Anything that gets in the way they create,

863
00:28:20,555 --> 00:28:22,365
Ben: move around, they'll penalize you for

864
00:28:22,426 --> 00:28:22,927
Ben: breaking.

865
00:28:23,468 --> 00:28:27,038
Ben: Yeah, like they won't create a win-win

866
00:28:27,078 --> 00:28:27,559
Ben: experience.

867
00:28:27,620 --> 00:28:29,665
Ben: And so I was like, okay, this is obvious.

868
00:28:29,886 --> 00:28:31,169
Ben: There's, this is clearly going to be

869
00:28:31,249 --> 00:28:31,690
Ben: massive.

870
00:28:31,811 --> 00:28:33,776
Ben: Everyone's going to work in this capacity

871
00:28:33,836 --> 00:28:34,406
Ben: in some way.

872
00:28:35,548 --> 00:28:38,333
Kyle: Yeah, also, I will say that the old model

873
00:28:38,373 --> 00:28:39,856
Kyle: feels like a commodity.

874
00:28:40,016 --> 00:28:42,047
Kyle: That is also the same to me as Yelp.

875
00:28:42,528 --> 00:28:44,292
Kyle: When I go to Yelp and I look at restaurants,

876
00:28:44,352 --> 00:28:46,518
Kyle: right, everything is 3.8 stars.

877
00:28:46,825 --> 00:28:48,109
Kyle: Like is everything terrible?

878
00:28:48,571 --> 00:28:50,337
Kyle: And it's like, and so, going through that,

879
00:28:50,397 --> 00:28:53,595
Kyle: like we found 108 results for you, and

880
00:28:53,615 --> 00:28:55,347
Kyle: you're like going through and you're really

881
00:28:55,387 --> 00:28:57,513
Kyle: only looking for the people with 4.9 stars,

882
00:28:57,593 --> 00:29:00,869
Kyle: because anything below that, I mean, and it

883
00:29:00,889 --> 00:29:04,056
Kyle: just becomes this it's much more about like

884
00:29:04,136 --> 00:29:06,168
Kyle: how, how cheaply can I get it and how quick

885
00:29:06,188 --> 00:29:08,093
Kyle: can I get it, and and someone's willing to

886
00:29:08,153 --> 00:29:09,965
Kyle: do it for $4 or whatever.

887
00:29:10,366 --> 00:29:12,131
Kyle: And you sort of get into this and then it

888
00:29:12,171 --> 00:29:13,856
Kyle: just becomes lowest common denominator.

889
00:29:15,145 --> 00:29:16,789
Ben: And that almost never works out.

890
00:29:17,250 --> 00:29:19,456
Ben: If you've done any type of high-end project

891
00:29:19,656 --> 00:29:21,409
Ben: and I know you've done probably hundreds

892
00:29:21,930 --> 00:29:23,294
Ben: that almost never works out.

893
00:29:23,435 --> 00:29:26,704
Ben: You never can really hire the cheapest

894
00:29:26,744 --> 00:29:28,288
Ben: person because it doesn't work for them.

895
00:29:28,770 --> 00:29:30,875
Ben: They're desperate and they're really just

896
00:29:30,935 --> 00:29:33,148
Ben: trying to get any type of project.

897
00:29:34,070 --> 00:29:35,133
Kyle: Or you have to become good at it.

898
00:29:35,253 --> 00:29:37,157
Kyle: I've been doing it for 20 years, so I've

899
00:29:37,197 --> 00:29:38,928
Kyle: gotten really, really, really good.

900
00:29:39,249 --> 00:29:41,716
Kyle: But then I step back and think I have to

901
00:29:41,796 --> 00:29:46,548
Kyle: get good at sourcing and looking and trying

902
00:29:46,569 --> 00:29:48,453
Kyle: and all this sort of stuff, versus being

903
00:29:48,533 --> 00:29:49,475
Kyle: able to just like.

904
00:29:49,756 --> 00:29:50,918
Kyle: Let's get right to the project.

905
00:29:51,745 --> 00:29:53,973
Ben: Exactly, and so you still have to build the

906
00:29:54,013 --> 00:29:54,334
Ben: trust.

907
00:29:55,006 --> 00:29:57,411
Ben: There's still all this other work that you

908
00:29:57,431 --> 00:30:01,119
Ben: have to put in to make this thing succeed,

909
00:30:01,605 --> 00:30:04,935
Ben: and so, ultimately, it becomes no longer

910
00:30:04,995 --> 00:30:05,737
Ben: value additive.

911
00:30:06,065 --> 00:30:07,872
Ben: The matching no longer becomes value

912
00:30:07,973 --> 00:30:08,314
Ben: additive.

913
00:30:08,785 --> 00:30:10,391
Ben: You kind of might be net negative.

914
00:30:10,431 --> 00:30:10,993
Ben: At the end of it.

915
00:30:11,526 --> 00:30:12,928
Ben: You take out the commission fees and the

916
00:30:12,988 --> 00:30:15,612
Ben: friction and the weird guardrails that they

917
00:30:15,672 --> 00:30:17,095
Ben: put on the interaction.

918
00:30:17,135 --> 00:30:21,590
Ben: And so what would a network that was

919
00:30:21,691 --> 00:30:23,297
Ben: vertically integrated with payments,

920
00:30:23,338 --> 00:30:24,643
Ben: contracts, all the things you needed to

921
00:30:24,683 --> 00:30:28,533
Ben: collaborate with identity, and what if it

922
00:30:28,553 --> 00:30:29,315
Ben: was commission free?

923
00:30:29,335 --> 00:30:30,137
Ben: What would that look like?

924
00:30:30,177 --> 00:30:32,107
Ben: And that was the question that we asked,

925
00:30:32,168 --> 00:30:35,293
Ben: and I was like, wow, I told that vision to.

926
00:30:35,613 --> 00:30:37,877
Ben: They were like you're stupid, like that's a

927
00:30:37,937 --> 00:30:40,570
Ben: horrible idea, like how are you?

928
00:30:40,731 --> 00:30:41,896
Ben: How are you going to make money?

929
00:30:41,976 --> 00:30:43,623
Ben: You think you're just going to reinvent the

930
00:30:43,663 --> 00:30:44,647
Ben: marketplace model.

931
00:30:45,730 --> 00:30:46,533
Kyle: I love these.

932
00:30:46,793 --> 00:30:48,779
Kyle: I love these point of views that are like I

933
00:30:48,860 --> 00:30:51,086
Kyle: cannot envision anything except for what

934
00:30:51,126 --> 00:30:54,394
Kyle: exists right now it's, it was, it was so.

935
00:30:55,216 --> 00:30:56,587
Ben: I mean, honestly, it was hard, it was hard

936
00:30:56,628 --> 00:30:57,631
Ben: to hear, right, I'm like cause.

937
00:30:57,671 --> 00:31:00,286
Ben: I'm like so excited, I'm like this is going

938
00:31:00,306 --> 00:31:00,988
Ben: to change everything.

939
00:31:01,028 --> 00:31:02,132
Ben: Like this is like something I could

940
00:31:02,152 --> 00:31:04,308
Ben: dedicate my life to, like I've worked this

941
00:31:04,368 --> 00:31:05,751
Ben: way, I've hired this way, I've lived

942
00:31:05,791 --> 00:31:06,192
Ben: through this.

943
00:31:06,272 --> 00:31:09,486
Ben: Like I can feel some type of validation

944
00:31:09,546 --> 00:31:09,906
Ben: from this.

945
00:31:09,946 --> 00:31:11,309
Ben: And it kind of goes back to something

946
00:31:11,369 --> 00:31:13,712
Ben: deeper which is similar to you when you got

947
00:31:13,732 --> 00:31:15,996
Ben: your first web design project right.

948
00:31:16,697 --> 00:31:18,259
Ben: I had a similar experience where I got my

949
00:31:18,420 --> 00:31:20,812
Ben: first project, as I think it was like a

950
00:31:20,833 --> 00:31:21,836
Ben: WordPress project.

951
00:31:22,298 --> 00:31:24,908
Kyle: And I oh my gosh, yeah, a deep in the

952
00:31:24,928 --> 00:31:25,430
Kyle: plugins.

953
00:31:26,385 --> 00:31:27,487
Kyle: Yeah, oh my God, yeah.

954
00:31:28,428 --> 00:31:30,231
Ben: That's crazy to see that ecosystem and like

955
00:31:30,251 --> 00:31:33,016
Ben: how it's kind of evolved and, yeah, uh,

956
00:31:33,136 --> 00:31:33,697
Ben: denatured.

957
00:31:33,817 --> 00:31:37,870
Ben: But I I'd say, like you know, so I'm this

958
00:31:38,131 --> 00:31:40,478
Ben: bedroom producer living in brooklyn, super

959
00:31:40,498 --> 00:31:42,724
Ben: poor, like broke, paycheck to paycheck,

960
00:31:42,764 --> 00:31:45,551
Ben: barely scraping by negative you know

961
00:31:45,591 --> 00:31:47,535
Ben: account balances at the end of the month to

962
00:31:47,575 --> 00:31:49,808
Ben: pay my rent in, like my tiny room that has

963
00:31:49,848 --> 00:31:51,413
Ben: paper thin walls and the heat doesn't

964
00:31:51,433 --> 00:31:53,607
Ben: really work, and just like truly slumming

965
00:31:53,667 --> 00:31:56,173
Ben: it in new york, like working for sony

966
00:31:56,213 --> 00:31:57,636
Ben: making like I think it was like 2 000

967
00:31:57,676 --> 00:31:58,939
Ben: british pounds a month.

968
00:32:00,429 --> 00:32:01,733
Ben: So like I think at the time maybe it was a

969
00:32:01,773 --> 00:32:03,096
Ben: better exchange rate, but still that's

970
00:32:03,365 --> 00:32:04,167
Ben: nothing for new york.

971
00:32:04,548 --> 00:32:07,293
Ben: Yeah, right, all this all of a sudden I get

972
00:32:07,313 --> 00:32:10,819
Ben: this excuse me, wordpress project.

973
00:32:11,486 --> 00:32:13,451
Ben: It was like two thousand dollars and I

974
00:32:13,471 --> 00:32:16,778
Ben: could do it in one day and I was like holy

975
00:32:16,838 --> 00:32:19,690
Ben: shit, totally, for the first time in my

976
00:32:19,771 --> 00:32:22,779
Ben: life I felt like validated to where, like,

977
00:32:22,839 --> 00:32:24,789
Ben: this person needs my expertise.

978
00:32:24,970 --> 00:32:26,135
Ben: I'm a college dropout.

979
00:32:26,456 --> 00:32:27,722
Ben: I'm just like creative type which

980
00:32:27,742 --> 00:32:28,746
Ben: everyone's skeptical of.

981
00:32:28,766 --> 00:32:29,349
Ben: Let's be real.

982
00:32:29,751 --> 00:32:30,735
Ben: I live in Brooklyn.

983
00:32:30,816 --> 00:32:31,941
Ben: Everyone's skeptical of that.

984
00:32:31,981 --> 00:32:33,667
Ben: At the time at least, they're like what are

985
00:32:33,687 --> 00:32:34,610
Ben: you doing with your life?

986
00:32:34,731 --> 00:32:35,934
Ben: I didn't really have a lot of good answers

987
00:32:35,974 --> 00:32:36,255
Ben: for that.

988
00:32:38,545 --> 00:32:41,091
Ben: Whoa, I made $2,000 in one day.

989
00:32:41,693 --> 00:32:42,515
Ben: I cracked the code.

990
00:32:42,595 --> 00:32:45,127
Ben: Not only did I feel validated, I realized

991
00:32:45,147 --> 00:32:47,213
Ben: that I could upskill and continue to

992
00:32:47,293 --> 00:32:49,766
Ben: upskill, refine my expertise, and I could

993
00:32:49,806 --> 00:32:51,351
Ben: control my earning potential.

994
00:32:52,014 --> 00:32:52,395
Kyle: And that was-.

995
00:32:52,485 --> 00:32:53,896
Kyle: You cracked the door, you pulled back the

996
00:32:53,916 --> 00:32:54,843
Kyle: crack the door on on you.

997
00:32:54,984 --> 00:32:56,752
Kyle: You, you like, pulled back the curtain and

998
00:32:56,793 --> 00:32:58,520
Kyle: you look back and you went like there's a

999
00:32:58,601 --> 00:33:01,529
Kyle: whole other reality that you can sort of

1000
00:33:01,609 --> 00:33:02,251
Kyle: get into.

1001
00:33:02,812 --> 00:33:05,197
Kyle: That's out of that linear sort of like you,

1002
00:33:05,277 --> 00:33:07,729
Kyle: you better work your way out the chain,

1003
00:33:08,090 --> 00:33:10,616
Kyle: totally so, like fast forward, right, like

1004
00:33:10,776 --> 00:33:11,077
Kyle: whatever.

1005
00:33:11,117 --> 00:33:12,626
Ben: that seven or eight years when I'm working

1006
00:33:12,686 --> 00:33:15,130
Ben: on Contra this is a deeply personal thing

1007
00:33:15,670 --> 00:33:17,793
Ben: Like this isn't some like oh, I have this

1008
00:33:17,813 --> 00:33:19,135
Ben: like good idea, I whiteboard it.

1009
00:33:19,215 --> 00:33:20,817
Ben: It's like no, like this is where I first

1010
00:33:20,877 --> 00:33:23,641
Ben: found like meaning and value personally.

1011
00:33:36,285 --> 00:33:37,008
Ben: Same experience, right.

1012
00:33:37,028 --> 00:33:38,053
Ben: Whoever it is this young person, whoever in

1013
00:33:38,073 --> 00:33:38,896
Ben: the world who has like a chip on their

1014
00:33:38,916 --> 00:33:39,901
Ben: shoulder because they're like, yeah, you

1015
00:33:39,921 --> 00:33:40,804
Ben: know, maybe I'm just not that good, but all

1016
00:33:40,824 --> 00:33:43,050
Ben: of a sudden they get the door cracks open

1017
00:33:43,070 --> 00:33:45,014
Ben: and they put their foot in, they find

1018
00:33:45,054 --> 00:33:45,535
Ben: success.

1019
00:33:45,936 --> 00:33:47,486
Ben: Boom, their world changes.

1020
00:33:47,726 --> 00:33:50,671
Ben: Right, that's going to happen to a lot of

1021
00:33:50,731 --> 00:33:52,975
Ben: people globally.

1022
00:33:53,055 --> 00:33:55,520
Ben: The tide is truly rising.

1023
00:33:56,646 --> 00:33:58,272
Ben: We're seeing that with all these new tools

1024
00:33:58,312 --> 00:34:00,932
Ben: like Framer you called it Webflow, spline,

1025
00:34:01,012 --> 00:34:04,194
Ben: rive, all these new means of creativity

1026
00:34:05,286 --> 00:34:06,350
Ben: People can monetize that.

1027
00:34:06,370 --> 00:34:07,274
Ben: There's value there.

1028
00:34:07,767 --> 00:34:09,962
Ben: Your creativity is now becoming even more

1029
00:34:10,023 --> 00:34:10,325
Ben: valuable.

1030
00:34:11,268 --> 00:34:12,794
Ben: When it came to building this ecosystem,

1031
00:34:12,905 --> 00:34:15,390
Ben: it's like what if we made a product that

1032
00:34:15,430 --> 00:34:18,256
Ben: was win-win, where there was stored value

1033
00:34:18,316 --> 00:34:20,567
Ben: for every project you did, but we didn't

1034
00:34:20,948 --> 00:34:22,853
Ben: take a commission and there was stored

1035
00:34:22,893 --> 00:34:24,906
Ben: value for every time a client hired you on

1036
00:34:24,926 --> 00:34:26,173
Ben: the client side because they could build

1037
00:34:26,193 --> 00:34:27,963
Ben: their network, and we didn't take a

1038
00:34:28,003 --> 00:34:30,469
Ben: commission and we only monetized through

1039
00:34:30,549 --> 00:34:32,893
Ben: value, additive services, so things, so

1040
00:34:32,953 --> 00:34:36,159
Ben: things, value on top of that initial core

1041
00:34:36,225 --> 00:34:36,927
Ben: transaction.

1042
00:34:37,328 --> 00:34:38,310
Ben: That's where we make our money.

1043
00:34:38,370 --> 00:34:40,416
Ben: And like that was the kind of like aha

1044
00:34:40,456 --> 00:34:42,348
Ben: moment and all of a sudden it became like

1045
00:34:42,488 --> 00:34:45,255
Ben: less of like a business idea and more of

1046
00:34:45,295 --> 00:34:46,947
Ben: like this mission, where it's like there's

1047
00:34:46,987 --> 00:34:50,174
Ben: gotta be like a better, like, come on, like

1048
00:34:50,254 --> 00:34:50,816
Ben: what are we doing?

1049
00:34:50,836 --> 00:34:53,229
Ben: We're not, this is not ebay, humans are not

1050
00:34:53,350 --> 00:34:55,906
Ben: resources, we're not commodities Right, so

1051
00:34:55,946 --> 00:34:57,372
Ben: like there's got to be a better way.

1052
00:34:58,850 --> 00:35:00,094
Ben: And so a lot of naysayers, right.

1053
00:35:00,145 --> 00:35:01,571
Ben: Like no one really believed in the vision.

1054
00:35:01,825 --> 00:35:03,665
Ben: Everyone was like this is so dumb, like

1055
00:35:03,726 --> 00:35:05,613
Ben: just like people ignoring me during pitch

1056
00:35:05,633 --> 00:35:05,994
Ben: meetings.

1057
00:35:14,105 --> 00:35:14,888
Kyle: Like just like flipping, like no, you

1058
00:35:14,908 --> 00:35:15,772
Kyle: whatever, like just like get out, oh my

1059
00:35:15,792 --> 00:35:16,113
Kyle: gosh, yeah, I've.

1060
00:35:16,153 --> 00:35:17,458
Kyle: I've so similar like and I love that that

1061
00:35:17,478 --> 00:35:18,924
Kyle: you know, and hearing that you've been

1062
00:35:18,944 --> 00:35:20,468
Kyle: through that same process where, like I'm

1063
00:35:20,528 --> 00:35:22,613
Kyle: you know I'm only we we only started

1064
00:35:22,634 --> 00:35:23,396
Kyle: building in April.

1065
00:35:23,596 --> 00:35:25,790
Kyle: So I mean I you know I'm I'm still young in

1066
00:35:25,810 --> 00:35:27,274
Kyle: the process, but it's one of those things

1067
00:35:27,334 --> 00:35:38,566
Kyle: where I can, I can feel it in my bones.

1068
00:35:38,586 --> 00:35:38,987
Kyle: I can see the future.

1069
00:35:39,007 --> 00:35:39,848
Kyle: I know where content creation will turn to

1070
00:35:39,868 --> 00:35:41,672
Kyle: curation and and we are over platforms and

1071
00:35:41,732 --> 00:35:44,216
Kyle: if you can and if you can share in a

1072
00:35:44,296 --> 00:35:48,610
Kyle: horizontal way your favorite stuff, it's

1073
00:35:48,870 --> 00:35:51,576
Kyle: just going to, it's going to be this thing.

1074
00:35:52,157 --> 00:35:54,170
Kyle: But right now, when you start talking about

1075
00:35:54,231 --> 00:35:57,172
Kyle: that and people go, why don't you just make

1076
00:35:57,212 --> 00:35:59,016
Kyle: another restaurant recommendation app or

1077
00:35:59,056 --> 00:35:59,337
Kyle: whatever?

1078
00:35:59,357 --> 00:36:01,093
Kyle: And I'm like, no, you just want to flip the

1079
00:36:01,133 --> 00:36:01,394
Kyle: table.

1080
00:36:01,696 --> 00:36:02,902
Kyle: No, I'm not going to make a restaurant

1081
00:36:02,922 --> 00:36:05,590
Kyle: recommendation app and, like you know, but

1082
00:36:05,630 --> 00:36:06,191
Kyle: it's so it's.

1083
00:36:06,352 --> 00:36:08,257
Kyle: It's also good for me to hear that you know

1084
00:36:08,397 --> 00:36:10,878
Kyle: you've you know, sorry for your pain, but

1085
00:36:10,958 --> 00:36:12,899
Kyle: like it's good for me to hear you going

1086
00:36:12,919 --> 00:36:15,100
Kyle: through that, and then obviously you know

1087
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:16,941
Kyle: being where you're at now, which is, I

1088
00:36:17,081 --> 00:36:18,442
Kyle: think you're just going to like, eat this

1089
00:36:18,482 --> 00:36:21,203
Kyle: market up with you know, with such goodness,

1090
00:36:21,903 --> 00:36:22,384
Kyle: we'll see.

1091
00:36:22,565 --> 00:36:24,767
Ben: But like to your point, like I feel like

1092
00:36:24,967 --> 00:36:27,049
Ben: everyone has to go through this kind of

1093
00:36:27,129 --> 00:36:27,389
Ben: like.

1094
00:36:28,732 --> 00:36:30,739
Ben: You know, when you're trying to bring this,

1095
00:36:31,112 --> 00:36:32,410
Ben: you're trying to bring water to the village

1096
00:36:32,430 --> 00:36:34,678
Ben: and everyone's like, eh, I don't like that.

1097
00:36:35,513 --> 00:36:36,970
Kyle: Maybe you could sleep on people's couches

1098
00:36:37,311 --> 00:36:39,714
Kyle: and you could rent it out, or maybe a

1099
00:36:39,754 --> 00:36:41,833
Kyle: stranger can pick you up in a car and take

1100
00:36:41,853 --> 00:36:43,373
Kyle: you somewhere and you're like.

1101
00:36:43,413 --> 00:36:45,560
Kyle: Both of these sound terrible.

1102
00:36:45,670 --> 00:36:47,376
Kyle: These are terrible ideas.

1103
00:36:48,219 --> 00:36:50,652
Ben: Yeah, I mean, it's just, and you know what

1104
00:36:50,993 --> 00:36:51,874
Ben: Like people are going to?

1105
00:36:51,934 --> 00:36:53,797
Ben: They're always going to say that, and even

1106
00:36:53,837 --> 00:36:56,741
Ben: to this day, like people don't believe, and

1107
00:36:56,761 --> 00:36:57,322
Ben: that's fine.

1108
00:36:57,843 --> 00:37:05,511
Ben: But then, along the way, one, there's

1109
00:37:05,531 --> 00:37:06,676
Ben: always that one person who's just like yeah,

1110
00:37:06,696 --> 00:37:07,017
Ben: that's, that's it.

1111
00:37:07,037 --> 00:37:07,780
Ben: That's amazing, like this makes sense.

1112
00:37:07,820 --> 00:37:08,703
Ben: And then that one person turns into two,

1113
00:37:08,723 --> 00:37:10,771
Ben: and that two turns into three, and then the

1114
00:37:10,831 --> 00:37:12,555
Ben: three and so on, right, and all of a sudden

1115
00:37:12,595 --> 00:37:14,460
Ben: you have believers and it just like gives

1116
00:37:14,501 --> 00:37:16,747
Ben: you more fuel and you're just like maybe

1117
00:37:16,767 --> 00:37:16,907
Ben: this?

1118
00:37:16,967 --> 00:37:19,216
Kyle: is so you're saying, like so we were saying

1119
00:37:19,236 --> 00:37:19,839
Kyle: about naysayers.

1120
00:37:19,879 --> 00:37:20,322
Kyle: Do you feel like?

1121
00:37:20,342 --> 00:37:21,126
Kyle: There are there still?

1122
00:37:21,327 --> 00:37:22,632
Kyle: Are there still people who like don't,

1123
00:37:22,912 --> 00:37:24,877
Kyle: don't get it or don't think it's like, it's

1124
00:37:25,078 --> 00:37:26,962
Kyle: just gonna, it's the thing of course.

1125
00:37:27,163 --> 00:37:31,216
Ben: I think like that is part of the journey

1126
00:37:31,256 --> 00:37:34,381
Ben: and I think it goes from all naysayers to

1127
00:37:34,421 --> 00:37:34,761
Ben: then.

1128
00:37:35,102 --> 00:37:37,685
Ben: You go to this point to where, like, what

1129
00:37:37,730 --> 00:37:40,380
Ben: you're doing doesn't really impact anyone.

1130
00:37:40,470 --> 00:37:42,135
Ben: So you have like your core believers and

1131
00:37:42,175 --> 00:37:43,519
Ben: then so you kind of live in this echo

1132
00:37:43,539 --> 00:37:45,052
Ben: chamber of core believers so it kind of

1133
00:37:45,072 --> 00:37:45,976
Ben: feels like really fun.

1134
00:37:46,711 --> 00:37:47,934
Ben: Then, kind of you go through this like

1135
00:37:48,074 --> 00:37:50,601
Ben: valley of you know despair, like what I

1136
00:37:50,621 --> 00:37:51,932
Ben: like to call the pain cave, when you're

1137
00:37:51,952 --> 00:37:53,616
Ben: like building and like metrics aren't

1138
00:37:53,656 --> 00:37:55,159
Ben: moving and you just said, oh, like is this

1139
00:37:55,219 --> 00:37:55,780
Ben: even right?

1140
00:37:56,181 --> 00:37:56,922
Ben: Do people care?

1141
00:37:57,764 --> 00:37:58,852
Ben: And the reality is people don't care

1142
00:37:58,872 --> 00:37:59,975
Ben: because they have no idea what you're doing.

1143
00:38:00,758 --> 00:38:03,052
Ben: And then once you start to make some

1144
00:38:03,132 --> 00:38:05,620
Ben: progress, that's when the naysayers come

1145
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:05,860
Ben: back.

1146
00:38:06,382 --> 00:38:08,990
Ben: So once you start seeing metrics like start

1147
00:38:09,070 --> 00:38:11,897
Ben: to inflect, that's when you start making a

1148
00:38:11,957 --> 00:38:12,338
Ben: wave.

1149
00:38:12,859 --> 00:38:14,403
Ben: And then when you start making a wave and

1150
00:38:14,410 --> 00:38:16,278
Ben: you're putting yourself out there, you

1151
00:38:16,298 --> 00:38:17,242
Ben: attract more naysayers.

1152
00:38:17,282 --> 00:38:19,411
Ben: So it's almost like it's never gonna work.

1153
00:38:19,692 --> 00:38:20,514
Kyle: This is never gonna work.

1154
00:38:20,574 --> 00:38:22,038
Kyle: And then what happens is it goes, this

1155
00:38:22,078 --> 00:38:23,142
Kyle: plateau, well, people go.

1156
00:38:23,270 --> 00:38:24,477
Kyle: Well, of course, this is always.

1157
00:38:24,658 --> 00:38:26,086
Kyle: It's like airbnb and uber, right, you just

1158
00:38:26,106 --> 00:38:27,010
Kyle: get to a place where you're like, yeah,

1159
00:38:27,031 --> 00:38:29,736
Kyle: yeah, just grabbing an airbnb, so like it

1160
00:38:29,936 --> 00:38:32,863
Kyle: just becomes the thing, yeah, exactly and,

1161
00:38:32,903 --> 00:38:35,267
Kyle: like I think the hardest part is the is

1162
00:38:35,328 --> 00:38:37,075
Kyle: like that kind of pain, cave, or just no

1163
00:38:37,135 --> 00:38:37,697
Kyle: one even cares.

1164
00:38:37,737 --> 00:38:38,720
Ben: they're like what are you talking about?

1165
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:40,895
Ben: Like I don't care if this lives or dies,

1166
00:38:40,935 --> 00:38:43,020
Ben: and like that's I think right, you know

1167
00:38:43,100 --> 00:38:44,951
Ben: really really, uh, really tough.

1168
00:38:45,052 --> 00:38:46,635
Ben: But yeah, there's there's always naysayers

1169
00:38:46,655 --> 00:38:50,343
Ben: and I think, ultimately, you know, for us,

1170
00:38:50,851 --> 00:38:59,892
Ben: like 2018, we're ideating 2019, we're

1171
00:38:59,912 --> 00:39:00,594
Ben: conceptualizing, building, creating

1172
00:39:00,614 --> 00:39:01,897
Ben: wireframes, early versions those two years,

1173
00:39:02,558 --> 00:39:03,861
Ben: everyone thought it was a bad idea.

1174
00:39:06,350 --> 00:39:07,914
Kyle: Now, what were you doing during that period?

1175
00:39:07,954 --> 00:39:08,956
Kyle: Were you freelancing?

1176
00:39:08,976 --> 00:39:09,818
Kyle: Were you doing other stuff?

1177
00:39:09,858 --> 00:39:12,643
Kyle: Did you raise to do those two years?

1178
00:39:17,250 --> 00:39:18,152
Ben: Oh, so I was running a small business on

1179
00:39:18,172 --> 00:39:19,294
Ben: the Lower east side of manhattan and that's

1180
00:39:19,314 --> 00:39:19,575
Ben: what ripe was.

1181
00:39:19,595 --> 00:39:20,677
Ben: It was this healthy food, uh, delivery

1182
00:39:20,697 --> 00:39:23,242
Ben: service for offices, and like there's a

1183
00:39:23,282 --> 00:39:25,653
Ben: whole journey there that was totally built

1184
00:39:26,154 --> 00:39:28,739
Ben: with creative partners, independence,

1185
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:32,093
Ben: freelance, right, and so I kind of had like

1186
00:39:32,597 --> 00:39:34,210
Ben: sharpened my muscle as like a business

1187
00:39:35,051 --> 00:39:38,918
Ben: owner, as a founder, as an operator, and so

1188
00:39:38,938 --> 00:39:43,205
Ben: 2018, 2019, I'm kind of part-time working

1189
00:39:43,245 --> 00:39:43,951
Ben: on this company.

1190
00:39:44,091 --> 00:39:47,238
Ben: It was cashflow positive, so I was able to

1191
00:39:47,558 --> 00:39:50,244
Ben: reinvest some things into different ideas

1192
00:39:51,010 --> 00:39:52,415
Ben: and, along the way, like building that

1193
00:39:52,455 --> 00:39:54,191
Ben: company, I had built these teams where I

1194
00:39:54,232 --> 00:39:56,438
Ben: was producing a lot of internal, a lot of

1195
00:39:56,478 --> 00:39:58,122
Ben: internal software, a lot of custom software.

1196
00:39:58,150 --> 00:39:59,554
Ben: So I also like kind of knew how to like

1197
00:40:00,156 --> 00:40:01,820
Ben: develop products and things like that, even

1198
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:03,213
Ben: for, like, my own use case and for, like

1199
00:40:03,233 --> 00:40:05,058
Ben: the customers of our customers, because it

1200
00:40:05,079 --> 00:40:05,981
Ben: was a B2B product.

1201
00:40:07,130 --> 00:40:10,898
Ben: And you know, like I was kind of like half

1202
00:40:10,958 --> 00:40:13,803
Ben: in, half out and people were just like this

1203
00:40:13,823 --> 00:40:14,512
Ben: doesn't make any sense.

1204
00:40:14,532 --> 00:40:15,618
Ben: So I'm trying to raise money because I'm

1205
00:40:15,658 --> 00:40:16,140
Ben: like I don't.

1206
00:40:16,663 --> 00:40:18,210
Ben: You know like I, how am I supposed to

1207
00:40:18,311 --> 00:40:20,115
Ben: actually, you know, fund this thing?

1208
00:40:20,236 --> 00:40:21,278
Ben: No, no one was interested.

1209
00:40:21,298 --> 00:40:24,775
Ben: We had a couple angels come in end of 2019

1210
00:40:25,979 --> 00:40:27,804
Ben: and that was like whoa okay.

1211
00:40:27,964 --> 00:40:29,428
Ben: So besides that, it was really just like

1212
00:40:29,488 --> 00:40:30,010
Ben: self-funded.

1213
00:40:30,812 --> 00:40:32,478
Ben: Uh, trying like how to make this thing

1214
00:40:32,518 --> 00:40:36,717
Ben: happen really experimental.

1215
00:40:36,810 --> 00:40:37,955
Kyle: And then what was that first angel like?

1216
00:40:37,995 --> 00:40:40,076
Kyle: That was like wait a second, you see what I

1217
00:40:40,136 --> 00:40:40,317
Kyle: see?

1218
00:40:40,750 --> 00:40:43,099
Kyle: Hold on, play it back to me.

1219
00:40:45,113 --> 00:40:45,414
Kyle: Do you get?

1220
00:40:45,495 --> 00:40:45,696
Kyle: Like?

1221
00:40:45,756 --> 00:40:46,951
Kyle: What was that like so?

1222
00:40:47,753 --> 00:40:50,990
Ben: crazy enough our first angel investor, our

1223
00:40:51,071 --> 00:40:54,280
Ben: first check-in, is also our VP of finance

1224
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:54,561
Ben: today.

1225
00:40:55,251 --> 00:40:57,325
Kyle: And so amazing that's so good.

1226
00:40:57,727 --> 00:40:58,130
Kyle: One of my best-.

1227
00:40:58,371 --> 00:41:00,238
Kyle: Definitely you're saying definitely got it.

1228
00:41:01,912 --> 00:41:04,497
Ben: He got it so much to the point to where,

1229
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:07,223
Ben: when I first told him about the idea, I was

1230
00:41:07,243 --> 00:41:09,014
Ben: like, totally like back of the napkin,

1231
00:41:10,297 --> 00:41:11,981
Ben: really, like I'm literally sketching out

1232
00:41:12,021 --> 00:41:12,883
Ben: wireframes, right.

1233
00:41:13,490 --> 00:41:14,674
Ben: He was like, hey, what's your bin mode?

1234
00:41:14,694 --> 00:41:15,255
Ben: I want to invest.

1235
00:41:15,275 --> 00:41:15,717
Ben: I'm like what?

1236
00:41:16,379 --> 00:41:18,353
Ben: Like that's not how this works, Like that's

1237
00:41:18,413 --> 00:41:20,700
Ben: not, like that's not a thing, oh, that's

1238
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:21,201
Ben: amazing.

1239
00:41:21,710 --> 00:41:24,977
Ben: And I mean he was very successful in his

1240
00:41:25,017 --> 00:41:27,863
Ben: career as like, I think, vc, then turned

1241
00:41:27,903 --> 00:41:30,097
Ben: into like a portfolio manager at like a

1242
00:41:30,137 --> 00:41:40,671
Ben: pretty large hedge fund, so like he had

1243
00:41:40,691 --> 00:41:41,535
Ben: done very well for himself, had always like

1244
00:41:41,555 --> 00:41:42,318
Ben: he went to stanford, but truly self-made

1245
00:41:42,338 --> 00:41:43,061
Ben: like got into stanford, learned about

1246
00:41:43,082 --> 00:41:43,724
Ben: silicon valley, got obsessed with

1247
00:41:43,744 --> 00:41:44,227
Ben: entrepreneurship culture.

1248
00:41:44,247 --> 00:41:45,030
Ben: So I'd always been on this like outside,

1249
00:41:45,130 --> 00:41:46,997
Ben: looking in from like the builder's

1250
00:41:47,037 --> 00:41:47,478
Ben: perspective.

1251
00:41:47,498 --> 00:41:50,268
Ben: So I think he learned the startup um

1252
00:41:50,428 --> 00:41:52,495
Ben: culture because he had seen it like.

1253
00:41:52,515 --> 00:41:54,581
Ben: So, anyway, he's like like, wow, I get it.

1254
00:41:54,601 --> 00:41:56,314
Ben: It's like business model innovation that's

1255
00:41:56,334 --> 00:41:58,179
Ben: going to lead to a better product, which is

1256
00:41:58,199 --> 00:42:00,214
Ben: going to lead to better retention,

1257
00:42:00,254 --> 00:42:02,261
Ben: ultimately larger scale, because you're not

1258
00:42:02,281 --> 00:42:03,412
Ben: going to have the same constraints and

1259
00:42:03,452 --> 00:42:04,696
Ben: negative network effects that these

1260
00:42:04,716 --> 00:42:05,860
Ben: creation models will have.

1261
00:42:06,331 --> 00:42:08,015
Ben: He got it from day one and I was like, okay,

1262
00:42:08,075 --> 00:42:08,376
Ben: whoa.

1263
00:42:09,118 --> 00:42:11,284
Ben: And so finally I got to the point where I

1264
00:42:11,304 --> 00:42:13,029
Ben: was like, okay, this makes sense for you to

1265
00:42:13,069 --> 00:42:13,330
Ben: invest.

1266
00:42:13,630 --> 00:42:16,535
Ben: He came in also one of my closest friends,

1267
00:42:17,536 --> 00:42:19,860
Ben: who was working in New York at the time as

1268
00:42:19,900 --> 00:42:21,662
Ben: well, who I had met, one of my wife's best

1269
00:42:21,742 --> 00:42:23,765
Ben: friends, boyfriend turned husband.

1270
00:42:25,030 --> 00:42:26,675
Ben: We're like, you know, whenever we had to,

1271
00:42:26,716 --> 00:42:29,573
Ben: like they wanted to hang out, we'll kind of

1272
00:42:29,593 --> 00:42:30,938
Ben: like, hang out with this new person.

1273
00:42:31,351 --> 00:42:32,977
Ben: We just hit it off talking about business.

1274
00:42:33,057 --> 00:42:33,838
Ben: I was like you know, what do you think

1275
00:42:33,878 --> 00:42:34,219
Ben: about this?

1276
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:35,301
Ben: Where do you think the future is going to

1277
00:42:35,321 --> 00:42:35,561
Ben: go?

1278
00:42:35,761 --> 00:42:36,863
Ben: Yeah, it's like it's just kind of it's

1279
00:42:36,883 --> 00:42:38,045
Ben: second nature, right, it's like it's like,

1280
00:42:38,470 --> 00:42:40,412
Ben: yeah, we do for fun and so, yeah, like

1281
00:42:40,432 --> 00:42:41,273
Ben: those are the first two.

1282
00:42:41,293 --> 00:42:43,235
Ben: And at that point I think I was like, maybe

1283
00:42:43,315 --> 00:42:44,236
Ben: like a hundred K.

1284
00:42:44,256 --> 00:42:45,037
Ben: Okay, that felt good.

1285
00:42:45,217 --> 00:42:48,440
Ben: All of a sudden we have a little bit of

1286
00:42:48,460 --> 00:42:49,121
Ben: money here 100K.

1287
00:42:55,410 --> 00:42:58,180
Kyle: Well, you had 100K of debt and credit card.

1288
00:42:58,350 --> 00:43:00,376
Kyle: You've had two angels in now.

1289
00:43:00,757 --> 00:43:02,421
Ben: Yeah, cash flow, we got some angels in.

1290
00:43:03,570 --> 00:43:07,514
Ben: Then we got our third angel and she was one

1291
00:43:07,575 --> 00:43:11,343
Ben: of our angels from my first company, ripe.

1292
00:43:11,911 --> 00:43:12,875
Ben: Her name's Suzanne Cruz.

1293
00:43:12,930 --> 00:43:13,453
Ben: She's amazing, amazing.

1294
00:43:13,493 --> 00:43:14,791
Ben: She still helps us with legal.

1295
00:43:14,892 --> 00:43:16,074
Ben: She's like, uh, she was a corporate

1296
00:43:16,095 --> 00:43:19,703
Ben: attorney in new york and I met her at like

1297
00:43:19,723 --> 00:43:24,280
Ben: one of those cringy uh vc ski meetups that

1298
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:26,204
Ben: happens in like upstate new york where the

1299
00:43:26,225 --> 00:43:27,575
Ben: mountains are just like what are we doing

1300
00:43:27,615 --> 00:43:27,836
Ben: here?

1301
00:43:27,896 --> 00:43:29,584
Ben: Like this is like you know, they're hills,

1302
00:43:29,785 --> 00:43:31,251
Ben: they're not mountains anyway.

1303
00:43:32,073 --> 00:43:32,735
Ben: So she comes in.

1304
00:43:32,755 --> 00:43:34,038
Ben: She's's like I love this idea and I was

1305
00:43:34,058 --> 00:43:34,419
Ben: like what?

1306
00:43:34,439 --> 00:43:35,763
Ben: I was like holy shit, okay.

1307
00:43:36,931 --> 00:43:38,936
Ben: And so all of a sudden, like we have three

1308
00:43:39,016 --> 00:43:40,700
Ben: angels and I'm like, okay, like that's,

1309
00:43:40,981 --> 00:43:41,542
Ben: that's cool.

1310
00:43:42,150 --> 00:43:43,751
Ben: And then I'm talking to like firms and

1311
00:43:43,771 --> 00:43:45,752
Ben: they're just like no, they're like get out

1312
00:43:45,772 --> 00:43:47,073
Ben: of my face, like this doesn't make any

1313
00:43:47,133 --> 00:43:47,633
Ben: sense.

1314
00:43:48,234 --> 00:43:51,476
Ben: And they'd be like, no, sorry, it'll lie,

1315
00:43:51,516 --> 00:43:52,716
Ben: like not going to happen.

1316
00:43:53,417 --> 00:43:54,457
Ben: I'm like, okay, whatever.

1317
00:43:55,038 --> 00:43:58,180
Ben: And then and this is crazy the pandemic

1318
00:43:58,200 --> 00:43:58,580
Ben: happens.

1319
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:00,841
Ben: And then, all of a sudden, people are like

1320
00:44:00,861 --> 00:44:01,442
Ben: wait a second.

1321
00:44:02,182 --> 00:44:04,924
Ben: Remote work oh, they're like wait,

1322
00:44:05,424 --> 00:44:07,525
Ben: knowledge work could always have been done

1323
00:44:07,565 --> 00:44:07,926
Ben: remote.

1324
00:44:08,666 --> 00:44:12,448
Ben: Oh, great, so remote, flexible, okay, okay,

1325
00:44:12,508 --> 00:44:13,749
Ben: they're like wait a second, this is

1326
00:44:13,849 --> 00:44:14,409
Ben: relevant.

1327
00:44:15,270 --> 00:44:17,852
Ben: And then we were off to the races and so,

1328
00:44:17,912 --> 00:44:20,294
Ben: like all of a sudden, it just took like a

1329
00:44:20,334 --> 00:44:22,735
Ben: societal shift for people to realize this

1330
00:44:23,116 --> 00:44:24,797
Ben: trend, that was inevitable the whole time

1331
00:44:25,497 --> 00:44:31,121
Ben: and like, yeah, I had seen, but it took.

1332
00:44:31,262 --> 00:44:33,003
Kyle: It took the pandemic, I think, really for

1333
00:44:33,043 --> 00:44:35,865
Kyle: corporate America to go like, hey, business

1334
00:44:35,925 --> 00:44:38,547
Kyle: still goes on and nothing, and like things

1335
00:44:38,687 --> 00:44:39,768
Kyle: didn't fall apart.

1336
00:44:41,233 --> 00:44:43,617
Kyle: Um, and then it also meant that everyone

1337
00:44:43,717 --> 00:44:47,584
Kyle: who was even moderately thinking about I

1338
00:44:47,624 --> 00:44:48,611
Kyle: don't want to do this anymore.

1339
00:44:48,651 --> 00:44:50,574
Kyle: I wish I could do something, had the

1340
00:44:50,654 --> 00:44:52,677
Kyle: opportunity to like, actually go do that.

1341
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:55,682
Ben: All of a sudden, it became a necessity for

1342
00:44:55,722 --> 00:44:56,183
Ben: some people.

1343
00:44:56,263 --> 00:44:57,705
Ben: Right it was just yeah, totally.

1344
00:44:58,430 --> 00:45:00,979
Ben: It's like, whoa, like I have these skills

1345
00:45:01,059 --> 00:45:03,869
Ben: and I'm now there's this whole new world

1346
00:45:03,889 --> 00:45:05,332
Ben: that just got opened up All of a sudden.

1347
00:45:05,372 --> 00:45:10,242
Ben: Zoom is super valuable and your home setup

1348
00:45:10,302 --> 00:45:11,104
Ben: is super valuable.

1349
00:45:11,250 --> 00:45:12,595
Ben: Like my parents were so funny, like the.

1350
00:45:12,615 --> 00:45:14,060
Ben: The first thing I remember I got my.

1351
00:45:14,851 --> 00:45:16,978
Ben: One of my earliest memories when I was a

1352
00:45:17,018 --> 00:45:20,559
Ben: kid was, I think I got $100 from one of my

1353
00:45:20,679 --> 00:45:21,722
Ben: great-grandparents.

1354
00:45:21,950 --> 00:45:22,934
Ben: I was lucky enough to know my

1355
00:45:22,974 --> 00:45:25,416
Ben: great-grandparents for Christmas or

1356
00:45:25,436 --> 00:45:28,538
Ben: whatever, and I was like, oh, I can't wait

1357
00:45:28,558 --> 00:45:29,441
Ben: to go buy some toys.

1358
00:45:29,610 --> 00:45:30,956
Ben: They're like nope, you're buying a desk.

1359
00:45:31,530 --> 00:45:32,975
Ben: And I was like, what A desk?

1360
00:45:33,035 --> 00:45:33,998
Ben: I was like, what are you talking about?

1361
00:45:34,018 --> 00:45:34,941
Ben: They're like, no, you need a desk.

1362
00:45:35,010 --> 00:45:36,194
Ben: And I was like, for what?

1363
00:45:36,435 --> 00:45:39,254
Ben: Like I'm a kid, like who knows, but my

1364
00:45:39,314 --> 00:45:41,320
Ben: happy place is now my home office desk.

1365
00:45:41,470 --> 00:45:45,100
Ben: Like everywhere I go, I have a setup.

1366
00:45:45,220 --> 00:45:46,042
Ben: I need it right.

1367
00:45:58,010 --> 00:45:58,812
Ben: And like of a sudden, that became a thing

1368
00:45:58,833 --> 00:45:59,515
Ben: right, like show off your workspace.

1369
00:45:59,535 --> 00:45:59,755
Ben: Like is it?

1370
00:45:59,775 --> 00:46:00,377
Ben: Like, do you have a home anyway?

1371
00:46:00,397 --> 00:46:01,200
Ben: So, like this, everything changed and all

1372
00:46:01,220 --> 00:46:02,083
Ben: of a sudden, like we're on the other side.

1373
00:46:02,103 --> 00:46:02,283
Ben: We're now.

1374
00:46:02,303 --> 00:46:03,126
Ben: Conjure is a hot idea, but it wasn't.

1375
00:46:03,166 --> 00:46:03,387
Ben: It wasn't.

1376
00:46:03,427 --> 00:46:03,948
Ben: It wasn't hot immediately.

1377
00:46:03,968 --> 00:46:06,237
Ben: So I had moved out to san francisco, uh, to

1378
00:46:06,277 --> 00:46:07,683
Ben: raise capital, and that was my plan.

1379
00:46:07,763 --> 00:46:09,189
Ben: Sorry, my plan was to move out to san

1380
00:46:09,209 --> 00:46:11,514
Ben: francisco from new york and so I had this

1381
00:46:11,554 --> 00:46:13,539
Ben: like three month airbnb and I was gonna go

1382
00:46:13,559 --> 00:46:15,002
Ben: out to san francisco and make it happen,

1383
00:46:15,022 --> 00:46:19,125
Ben: and that was my plan, and my airbnb started

1384
00:46:19,146 --> 00:46:20,090
Ben: in february of 2020.

1385
00:46:23,536 --> 00:46:24,377
Ben: I'm like okay.

1386
00:46:24,437 --> 00:46:27,883
Ben: So like I'm like, fuck, this is, this is so.

1387
00:46:27,903 --> 00:46:29,305
Kyle: I'm sitting there in the once in, you got

1388
00:46:29,350 --> 00:46:30,092
Kyle: all your money right.

1389
00:46:30,112 --> 00:46:31,935
Ben: That's how, that was how the story, yeah,

1390
00:46:33,538 --> 00:46:36,625
Ben: but like basically like I was doing this,

1391
00:46:36,725 --> 00:46:38,929
Ben: like this, this founder group thing called

1392
00:46:39,069 --> 00:46:40,192
Ben: on deck, which is fantastic.

1393
00:46:40,232 --> 00:46:41,115
Ben: I don't know if you've heard of it.

1394
00:46:41,837 --> 00:46:43,682
Ben: It's like founder community based in the

1395
00:46:43,702 --> 00:46:44,351
Ben: bay area.

1396
00:46:45,114 --> 00:46:47,400
Ben: Um, I think julian weiser is the ceo

1397
00:46:47,681 --> 00:46:49,165
Ben: fantastic, just like.

1398
00:46:49,426 --> 00:46:50,469
Ben: I can't recommend it enough.

1399
00:46:50,549 --> 00:46:51,271
Ben: It changed my life.

1400
00:46:51,512 --> 00:46:52,975
Ben: That's how I met my co-founder, gaius

1401
00:46:53,035 --> 00:46:53,396
Ben: anyway.

1402
00:46:53,937 --> 00:46:57,105
Ben: So I'm in these, like these, like the slack

1403
00:46:57,326 --> 00:46:59,170
Ben: community of all these people I'm supposed

1404
00:46:59,250 --> 00:47:00,919
Ben: to spend the next three months with in san

1405
00:47:00,959 --> 00:47:02,849
Ben: francisco to kind of acclimate to the

1406
00:47:02,869 --> 00:47:03,050
Ben: valley.

1407
00:47:03,090 --> 00:47:04,717
Ben: And I had been to san francisco a couple

1408
00:47:04,758 --> 00:47:07,108
Ben: times because we had acquisition offers for

1409
00:47:07,148 --> 00:47:09,414
Ben: my first company and so I had, I had done

1410
00:47:09,454 --> 00:47:10,556
Ben: the whole, like I had been there before.

1411
00:47:10,576 --> 00:47:11,137
Ben: I loved, loved it.

1412
00:47:11,157 --> 00:47:12,620
Ben: I was like I did the Tahoe thing.

1413
00:47:12,660 --> 00:47:14,604
Ben: I went down to Santa Cruz.

1414
00:47:14,690 --> 00:47:15,714
Ben: I was like this is amazing.

1415
00:47:15,754 --> 00:47:18,176
Ben: I love the Bay Area, so I was so excited

1416
00:47:18,830 --> 00:47:20,297
Ben: February 2020 comes around.

1417
00:47:20,470 --> 00:47:21,694
Ben: All of a sudden, they're like, wait, this

1418
00:47:21,774 --> 00:47:24,061
Ben: COVID thing like this might be real.

1419
00:47:24,150 --> 00:47:26,016
Ben: Like they start shutting offices down and

1420
00:47:26,237 --> 00:47:37,610
Ben: they did it in the Bay Area first, and so,

1421
00:47:37,631 --> 00:47:38,512
Ben: like I remember the thing that was like the

1422
00:47:38,533 --> 00:47:39,375
Ben: straw that broke the camel's back was like

1423
00:47:39,395 --> 00:47:40,196
Ben: Brex was like a super hot product at the

1424
00:47:40,216 --> 00:47:40,297
Ben: time.

1425
00:47:40,317 --> 00:47:41,179
Ben: I guess it still is in a lot of ways.

1426
00:47:41,199 --> 00:47:42,061
Ben: I mean, brex is great, but like they shut

1427
00:47:42,081 --> 00:47:43,223
Ben: down the offices and Gaius, my co-founder,

1428
00:47:43,243 --> 00:47:44,707
Ben: and I were in this group chat and he was

1429
00:47:44,747 --> 00:47:46,794
Ben: coming in from London on a one-way ticket.

1430
00:47:47,355 --> 00:47:49,160
Ben: I was going in from New York on a one-way

1431
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:51,112
Ben: ticket and he's just like, uh, are you

1432
00:47:51,133 --> 00:47:51,253
Ben: coming?

1433
00:47:51,273 --> 00:47:52,138
Ben: I was like I mean I was literally about to

1434
00:47:52,158 --> 00:47:53,284
Ben: cancel ticket and he's just like are you

1435
00:47:53,304 --> 00:47:53,465
Ben: coming?

1436
00:47:53,485 --> 00:47:54,811
Ben: I was like I mean I was literally about to

1437
00:47:54,851 --> 00:47:56,275
Ben: cancel, are you going?

1438
00:47:56,315 --> 00:47:57,177
Ben: He's like yeah.

1439
00:47:57,197 --> 00:47:58,340
Ben: He's like I think everyone's going.

1440
00:47:59,001 --> 00:48:00,253
Ben: So I was like, let's just, I'm just going

1441
00:48:00,273 --> 00:48:01,135
Ben: to set a meeting with this guy.

1442
00:48:01,978 --> 00:48:03,141
Ben: And so he was my only meeting.

1443
00:48:03,850 --> 00:48:04,591
Ben: Turns out, no one.

1444
00:48:04,871 --> 00:48:05,871
Ben: No one was going, no one.

1445
00:48:06,011 --> 00:48:07,372
Ben: Everything got canceled, everything went

1446
00:48:07,392 --> 00:48:07,732
Ben: remote.

1447
00:48:08,052 --> 00:48:10,013
Ben: And so I'm like, well, I got this meeting

1448
00:48:10,033 --> 00:48:13,275
Ben: with this one guy, gaius, and he seems

1449
00:48:13,335 --> 00:48:15,977
Ben: pretty cool, and he had been working on

1450
00:48:15,997 --> 00:48:20,019
Ben: this product called Gitsbo, which basically

1451
00:48:20,219 --> 00:48:23,701
Ben: analyzed your private code repositories to

1452
00:48:23,741 --> 00:48:25,942
Ben: determine your proficiency in different

1453
00:48:26,002 --> 00:48:28,543
Ben: languages, and then he cross-referenced

1454
00:48:28,583 --> 00:48:31,205
Ben: that with job openings that matched the

1455
00:48:31,245 --> 00:48:32,425
Ben: things you were proficient in.

1456
00:48:32,606 --> 00:48:33,966
Ben: And so it was almost like this, like deeper

1457
00:48:34,026 --> 00:48:36,207
Ben: way of like what can you do versus like

1458
00:48:36,227 --> 00:48:42,352
Ben: what have you done Right, and so it was

1459
00:48:42,372 --> 00:48:43,175
Ben: like he was kind of working on the same

1460
00:48:43,195 --> 00:48:43,737
Ben: problem, but for engineering.

1461
00:48:43,758 --> 00:48:44,661
Ben: And you know he was big in the open source

1462
00:48:44,681 --> 00:48:45,384
Ben: world, fantastic builder, but also

1463
00:48:45,405 --> 00:48:47,091
Ben: hilarious and super fun to hang out with.

1464
00:48:47,111 --> 00:48:50,882
Ben: So I went to San Francisco everything shuts

1465
00:48:50,942 --> 00:48:53,129
Ben: down, have no meetings, the venture markets

1466
00:48:53,169 --> 00:48:55,213
Ben: completely closed, no one's investing, and

1467
00:48:55,253 --> 00:48:59,882
Ben: so I spent February, march, april, may,

1468
00:49:00,443 --> 00:49:02,472
Ben: running out of money, being stressed

1469
00:49:02,492 --> 00:49:04,837
Ben: through my freaking eyeballs because our

1470
00:49:04,857 --> 00:49:07,451
Ben: business back in New York just got shut

1471
00:49:07,491 --> 00:49:09,395
Ben: down by the government, because you can't

1472
00:49:09,516 --> 00:49:12,022
Ben: have a food service establishment during

1473
00:49:12,042 --> 00:49:15,396
Ben: the pandemic, and I'm just like, holy fuck,

1474
00:49:15,436 --> 00:49:16,943
Ben: we had to lay off all of our team members

1475
00:49:16,983 --> 00:49:17,365
Ben: in new york.

1476
00:49:17,445 --> 00:49:19,452
Ben: I'm just like literally like crying on the

1477
00:49:19,532 --> 00:49:20,173
Ben: inside right.

1478
00:49:20,213 --> 00:49:20,574
Ben: I'm just like.

1479
00:49:20,594 --> 00:49:23,179
Ben: This is so stressful.

1480
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:27,294
Ben: Like you know, I think I was like 20, maybe

1481
00:49:27,314 --> 00:49:28,016
Ben: like 30, I don't know.

1482
00:49:28,036 --> 00:49:30,101
Ben: It's like 30, is like 29, I don't know, but

1483
00:49:30,121 --> 00:49:31,592
Ben: like gray hairs are just popping out

1484
00:49:31,672 --> 00:49:34,171
Ben: everywhere so like yeah, I'm just like

1485
00:49:34,271 --> 00:49:36,056
Ben: really in, in, in the thick of it, right,

1486
00:49:36,136 --> 00:49:39,867
Ben: and then all of a sudden, like may, people

1487
00:49:39,887 --> 00:49:41,834
Ben: are like hey, like okay, people are.

1488
00:49:42,175 --> 00:49:43,698
Ben: Like people are dying right, it was, it was

1489
00:49:43,718 --> 00:49:46,371
Ben: brutal, but like not everyone's dying.

1490
00:49:46,411 --> 00:49:48,760
Ben: Like oh, it's just like maybe, like okay,

1491
00:49:48,820 --> 00:49:51,308
Ben: so it's like people who are, you know, have

1492
00:49:51,409 --> 00:49:52,686
Ben: weak immune systems in the elderly, and so

1493
00:49:52,620 --> 00:49:53,061
Ben: things almost came back to like people who

1494
00:49:52,996 --> 00:49:53,357
Ben: are, you know, have weak immune systems and

1495
00:49:53,292 --> 00:49:55,280
Ben: the elderly, and so things almost came back

1496
00:49:55,300 --> 00:49:56,722
Ben: to like people like okay, this might go

1497
00:49:56,742 --> 00:49:57,223
Ben: back to normal.

1498
00:49:57,243 --> 00:49:59,316
Ben: And there was like that blip of like two

1499
00:49:59,376 --> 00:50:02,326
Ben: months where, like oh, things might come

1500
00:50:02,346 --> 00:50:02,868
Ben: back to normal.

1501
00:50:02,928 --> 00:50:04,232
Ben: And all of a sudden investors were like

1502
00:50:04,252 --> 00:50:06,257
Ben: wait a second, we should be investing in

1503
00:50:06,338 --> 00:50:09,392
Ben: all of these, like new remote work enabled

1504
00:50:09,432 --> 00:50:10,995
Ben: toth zoom.

1505
00:50:11,055 --> 00:50:13,719
Kyle: Just like, took off like a rocket ship,

1506
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:16,724
Kyle: like, yeah, exactly slack, like living on

1507
00:50:16,764 --> 00:50:19,917
Kyle: slack, yeah, yeah, top of the loom hop all

1508
00:50:19,937 --> 00:50:20,919
Kyle: these, all these crazy right.

1509
00:50:20,940 --> 00:50:24,373
Ben: So like there's our window, and so I

1510
00:50:24,413 --> 00:50:27,179
Ben: remember our first investor that gave us

1511
00:50:27,199 --> 00:50:29,203
Ben: like a decently, a decent size check, which

1512
00:50:29,223 --> 00:50:32,156
Ben: was 125 000, was john danner.

1513
00:50:32,437 --> 00:50:34,161
Ben: He was like a palo alto legend.

1514
00:50:34,702 --> 00:50:37,636
Ben: He had built um, I think this, this, this

1515
00:50:37,736 --> 00:50:38,317
Ben: product called.

1516
00:50:38,338 --> 00:50:39,601
Ben: He took this company public called net

1517
00:50:39,641 --> 00:50:40,002
Ben: gravity.

1518
00:50:40,022 --> 00:50:42,278
Ben: He was like one of these og silicon valley

1519
00:50:42,318 --> 00:50:44,827
Ben: engineering types, also like a professor,

1520
00:50:44,867 --> 00:50:46,193
Ben: but built this thing called net gravity

1521
00:50:46,213 --> 00:50:47,459
Ben: which turned into double click, which

1522
00:50:47,479 --> 00:50:48,584
Ben: turned into adwords, right.

1523
00:50:49,006 --> 00:50:50,812
Ben: So like he basically like built some of the

1524
00:50:50,873 --> 00:50:54,682
Ben: first um, you know, like ad engines and

1525
00:50:54,722 --> 00:50:57,055
Ben: like a hard investor to pitch, he was just

1526
00:50:57,115 --> 00:50:59,941
Ben: like no, like I don't, this is crazy.

1527
00:50:59,981 --> 00:51:02,693
Ben: And like guys and I are just like, oh man,

1528
00:51:02,713 --> 00:51:04,416
Ben: like we, we gotta get this guy to be

1529
00:51:04,436 --> 00:51:04,897
Ben: excited.

1530
00:51:05,699 --> 00:51:07,884
Ben: Finally we get a yes after like four weeks

1531
00:51:08,491 --> 00:51:10,593
Ben: and right as soon as he says yes, he makes

1532
00:51:10,613 --> 00:51:12,655
Ben: the introductions that got the rest of the

1533
00:51:12,675 --> 00:51:14,516
Ben: round done and it was like getting that one

1534
00:51:14,556 --> 00:51:19,101
Ben: breath basically dominoed into us, getting

1535
00:51:19,781 --> 00:51:21,523
Ben: another Stanford professor called Matt

1536
00:51:21,543 --> 00:51:23,725
Ben: Glickman, a hustle fund, which is a

1537
00:51:23,785 --> 00:51:25,147
Ben: fantastic, totally.

1538
00:51:25,167 --> 00:51:26,995
Kyle: Yeah, elizabeth and Eric and.

1539
00:51:27,015 --> 00:51:28,640
Ben: Brian, they're great, incredible right.

1540
00:51:29,372 --> 00:51:30,357
Ben: And then Sheehan as well.

1541
00:51:30,470 --> 00:51:32,827
Ben: She was the person who did our job and

1542
00:51:32,847 --> 00:51:35,960
Ben: she's based in singapore, and then um, and

1543
00:51:35,980 --> 00:51:37,465
Ben: then finally cowboy ventures and like,

1544
00:51:37,746 --> 00:51:39,271
Ben: trust me, there was like a million no's

1545
00:51:39,331 --> 00:51:41,396
Ben: also in between right, because we had been

1546
00:51:41,416 --> 00:51:44,082
Ben: doing this since, like you know, april.

1547
00:51:44,202 --> 00:51:45,874
Ben: We were like trying to do this right and

1548
00:51:45,894 --> 00:51:47,178
Ben: like we had the inflection point in the

1549
00:51:47,198 --> 00:51:48,871
Ben: product and we're just like man, but like

1550
00:51:48,891 --> 00:51:50,614
Ben: the markets were closed, the world was, the

1551
00:51:50,634 --> 00:51:51,195
Ben: world was ending.

1552
00:51:51,275 --> 00:51:52,457
Kyle: Right, everyone thought the world was

1553
00:51:52,497 --> 00:51:57,364
Kyle: ending so I love that first check and, by

1554
00:51:57,384 --> 00:52:00,990
Kyle: the way, I'm literally at that place where

1555
00:52:01,290 --> 00:52:01,651
Kyle: it is.

1556
00:52:02,292 --> 00:52:05,679
Kyle: We're standing on the top of the hill and

1557
00:52:05,759 --> 00:52:08,424
Kyle: like, and we're looking down and there's

1558
00:52:08,444 --> 00:52:09,351
Kyle: this big old I've.

1559
00:52:09,552 --> 00:52:12,600
Kyle: I've been fortunate to be through introcom.

1560
00:52:20,570 --> 00:52:21,271
Kyle: Andrew Chen has been coaching me on.

1561
00:52:21,291 --> 00:52:22,252
Kyle: We've been talking cold start problem and

1562
00:52:22,272 --> 00:52:23,072
Kyle: product market fit and those, but really

1563
00:52:23,092 --> 00:52:24,153
Kyle: talking about that snowball, like literally

1564
00:52:24,193 --> 00:52:25,715
Kyle: everyone's looking down the hill, going

1565
00:52:25,755 --> 00:52:29,578
Kyle: like you own first, you going first, yep,

1566
00:52:30,199 --> 00:52:33,222
Kyle: yeah, nope, you going first, yep, yeah, you

1567
00:52:33,282 --> 00:52:35,984
Kyle: Nope, like, and I just want to like push

1568
00:52:36,084 --> 00:52:38,266
Kyle: everybody and go, let's all go on this

1569
00:52:38,306 --> 00:52:38,446
Kyle: thing.

1570
00:52:38,466 --> 00:52:38,947
Kyle: You know what I mean.

1571
00:52:43,570 --> 00:52:44,552
Kyle: And so, like I can just imagine that first

1572
00:52:44,592 --> 00:52:46,335
Kyle: check which then sort of like starts that

1573
00:52:46,355 --> 00:52:47,297
Kyle: wave and I'm sure that, like in that moment

1574
00:52:47,317 --> 00:52:47,717
Kyle: I imagine it.

1575
00:52:47,878 --> 00:52:51,223
Kyle: Also, what's possible and the ideation that

1576
00:52:51,243 --> 00:52:52,025
Kyle: we were talking about.

1577
00:52:52,070 --> 00:52:54,021
Kyle: There's a difference between what you can

1578
00:52:54,263 --> 00:52:56,914
Kyle: think is possible, but then as soon as

1579
00:52:57,416 --> 00:52:59,431
Kyle: things start happening where you're like no,

1580
00:52:59,612 --> 00:53:01,639
Kyle: now I can actually make these things

1581
00:53:01,699 --> 00:53:03,796
Kyle: possible, it's got to be just like kid in a

1582
00:53:03,836 --> 00:53:04,378
Kyle: candy store.

1583
00:53:05,330 --> 00:53:10,977
Ben: It was man and, to be fair, it's crazy

1584
00:53:11,018 --> 00:53:11,759
Ben: impressive.

1585
00:53:11,779 --> 00:53:13,403
Ben: You said you're six months into building.

1586
00:53:13,931 --> 00:53:17,033
Ben: This was at this point, two years and and

1587
00:53:17,193 --> 00:53:20,040
Ben: there was multiple like failures in those

1588
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:21,672
Ben: two years where I like it was like, oh man,

1589
00:53:21,712 --> 00:53:22,777
Ben: like do I hang it up here?

1590
00:53:23,491 --> 00:53:27,267
Ben: So like I, yeah, like it was, it was

1591
00:53:27,488 --> 00:53:27,870
Ben: surreal.

1592
00:53:28,171 --> 00:53:30,737
Ben: And then but I think that was the end of

1593
00:53:30,818 --> 00:53:34,254
Ben: May when John Danner came in, and then by

1594
00:53:34,334 --> 00:53:37,042
Ben: the end of July we had our seed round done.

1595
00:53:37,350 --> 00:53:39,458
Ben: It was a $2 million seed round on a $10

1596
00:53:39,478 --> 00:53:41,713
Ben: million post and like now that's considered

1597
00:53:41,733 --> 00:53:43,238
Ben: like pre-seed, I don't care Whatever.

1598
00:53:43,258 --> 00:53:46,776
Ben: Amazing, totally it just it was just I

1599
00:53:46,817 --> 00:53:47,379
Ben: couldn't believe it.

1600
00:53:47,510 --> 00:53:50,110
Ben: I was like, holy shit, we can do this, but

1601
00:53:50,210 --> 00:53:51,932
Ben: there's always a catch when, holy shit, we

1602
00:53:51,972 --> 00:53:53,373
Ben: can do this, but there's always a catch

1603
00:53:53,393 --> 00:53:54,634
Ben: when something good happens, something

1604
00:53:54,654 --> 00:53:54,975
Ben: always, you know.

1605
00:53:54,995 --> 00:53:55,976
Kyle: Got to counterbalance it.

1606
00:53:56,376 --> 00:53:57,557
Kyle: The universe is like wait, wait, wait.

1607
00:53:57,637 --> 00:53:59,119
Kyle: Hold on yeah.

1608
00:53:59,259 --> 00:54:02,101
Ben: Disney's product that you know we had built

1609
00:54:03,062 --> 00:54:05,084
Ben: over the last like really year before.

1610
00:54:05,685 --> 00:54:07,566
Ben: It was basically authentication, the

1611
00:54:07,606 --> 00:54:11,495
Ben: profile, some referral mechanics inside

1612
00:54:11,515 --> 00:54:11,956
Ben: this product.

1613
00:54:11,977 --> 00:54:12,739
Ben: That was like decent UX.

1614
00:54:13,052 --> 00:54:14,391
Ben: It was okay, it was, it was good enough to

1615
00:54:14,431 --> 00:54:14,691
Ben: grow.

1616
00:54:16,174 --> 00:54:19,120
Ben: And all of a sudden guys is like we got to

1617
00:54:19,140 --> 00:54:20,122
Ben: rebuild this from scratch.

1618
00:54:20,743 --> 00:54:23,176
Ben: Like this is a view php app, we gotta, we

1619
00:54:23,196 --> 00:54:26,086
Ben: gotta start from zero and I'm like, okay,

1620
00:54:26,146 --> 00:54:27,330
Ben: so we have all these resources.

1621
00:54:28,152 --> 00:54:29,977
Ben: Now we have to build the team from scratch

1622
00:54:30,358 --> 00:54:31,721
Ben: and we have to build this product from

1623
00:54:31,781 --> 00:54:33,836
Ben: scratch and next thing you know, you're

1624
00:54:33,856 --> 00:54:34,659
Ben: back in the pain cave.

1625
00:54:34,690 --> 00:54:36,075
Kyle: So you don't get to celebrate that long.

1626
00:54:36,336 --> 00:54:38,432
Ben: Totally, there was no, there was no like

1627
00:54:38,472 --> 00:54:39,977
Ben: happy moment, like yeah, we did it.

1628
00:54:40,017 --> 00:54:43,003
Ben: It was like, oh, fuck, like, so now the

1629
00:54:43,083 --> 00:54:44,911
Ben: real fun begins and we didn't launch

1630
00:54:45,032 --> 00:54:49,018
Ben: something that was to parody of that

1631
00:54:49,078 --> 00:54:52,423
Ben: initial V1 until February of 2021.

1632
00:54:52,443 --> 00:54:55,128
Ben: Oh, wow, wow yeah, and so it took us a

1633
00:54:55,248 --> 00:54:58,115
Ben: whole like another eight months to like get

1634
00:54:58,155 --> 00:54:59,017
Ben: back to where we were.

1635
00:54:59,037 --> 00:55:00,682
Kyle: And I'm just like, the entire time I'm so

1636
00:55:00,722 --> 00:55:02,675
Kyle: paranoid, I'm like, oh, am I fucking up,

1637
00:55:02,735 --> 00:55:04,241
Kyle: like did I make the right, but do you think,

1638
00:55:04,743 --> 00:55:08,372
Kyle: do you think that you actually, by backing

1639
00:55:08,533 --> 00:55:10,575
Kyle: up, by going and this is what most people

1640
00:55:10,696 --> 00:55:14,080
Kyle: avoid right Both in career and life and

1641
00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:16,944
Kyle: pivoting, but also like that sort of

1642
00:55:17,104 --> 00:55:19,472
Kyle: technical and financial debt, do you feel

1643
00:55:19,492 --> 00:55:21,641
Kyle: like you built a better product ultimately,

1644
00:55:21,722 --> 00:55:25,876
Kyle: walking all the way down the mountain and

1645
00:55:26,036 --> 00:55:28,804
Kyle: analyzing it from the ground floor up, than

1646
00:55:28,864 --> 00:55:30,991
Kyle: you would have saying let's continue to

1647
00:55:31,031 --> 00:55:32,357
Kyle: build on what we did on V1?

1648
00:55:33,432 --> 00:55:36,255
Ben: I think we built a better foundation and

1649
00:55:36,837 --> 00:55:40,026
Ben: and I have to give it like we built a

1650
00:55:40,066 --> 00:55:41,651
Ben: better foundation that we're still building

1651
00:55:41,731 --> 00:55:42,192
Ben: off today.

1652
00:55:42,953 --> 00:55:45,077
Ben: Yeah, and so I have to give it to gaius,

1653
00:55:45,157 --> 00:55:48,724
Ben: like he was right and you know he's a

1654
00:55:48,810 --> 00:55:50,774
Ben: technical genius, that's his like, that's

1655
00:55:50,794 --> 00:55:55,723
Ben: his expertise you know, like it was tough,

1656
00:55:56,064 --> 00:55:57,593
Ben: it was tough, like it was one of the

1657
00:55:57,653 --> 00:56:00,118
Ben: hardest decisions to make, but he was right

1658
00:56:00,519 --> 00:56:03,412
Ben: and ultimately we're now moving faster

1659
00:56:03,472 --> 00:56:05,477
Ben: today because you've seen, contra, there's

1660
00:56:05,517 --> 00:56:07,422
Ben: so many surfaces right, like there's so

1661
00:56:07,892 --> 00:56:10,342
Ben: have to build, and they're none of them not

1662
00:56:10,362 --> 00:56:11,487
Ben: all of them still work even today.

1663
00:56:11,527 --> 00:56:13,013
Ben: We need to improve things but, like,

1664
00:56:13,996 --> 00:56:16,264
Ben: without that foundation, I think we would

1665
00:56:16,324 --> 00:56:18,511
Ben: have ultimately had to do it eventually and

1666
00:56:18,531 --> 00:56:22,140
Ben: then eventually would have turned into who

1667
00:56:22,180 --> 00:56:26,330
Ben: knows right and like, yeah, I I get where,

1668
00:56:26,350 --> 00:56:28,459
Ben: though I get where the technical, with guys

1669
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:29,705
Ben: like sort of leading the technical

1670
00:56:29,745 --> 00:56:30,549
Ben: foundation of stuff.

1671
00:56:30,609 --> 00:56:32,854
Kyle: Where did where did the ui ux come from?

1672
00:56:32,914 --> 00:56:34,056
Kyle: Was it from the platform?

1673
00:56:34,096 --> 00:56:37,562
Kyle: Because obviously I immediately, you know.

1674
00:56:37,783 --> 00:56:40,896
Kyle: I will also say I was surprised by Contra,

1675
00:56:40,916 --> 00:56:42,522
Kyle: because it was one of those to me.

1676
00:56:43,145 --> 00:56:45,372
Kyle: I know everything on the internet, like I

1677
00:56:45,452 --> 00:56:47,998
Kyle: know every product, but there was this one

1678
00:56:48,138 --> 00:56:51,050
Kyle: day where I sort of turned around and

1679
00:56:51,091 --> 00:56:53,096
Kyle: Contra was just there and it.

1680
00:56:53,116 --> 00:56:55,651
Kyle: It was like beautiful, and I went wait a

1681
00:56:55,791 --> 00:56:56,232
Kyle: second.

1682
00:56:56,453 --> 00:56:57,575
Kyle: That's probably why I messaged you.

1683
00:56:57,595 --> 00:57:00,362
Kyle: I was like wait, hold on one second.

1684
00:57:00,662 --> 00:57:03,475
Kyle: Usually I see stuff in the early ugly, you

1685
00:57:03,516 --> 00:57:03,696
Kyle: know.

1686
00:57:03,776 --> 00:57:05,861
Kyle: It's that like I'm getting in that loom

1687
00:57:05,921 --> 00:57:08,013
Kyle: beta where it works half the time or ever,

1688
00:57:08,033 --> 00:57:09,418
Kyle: but like all of a sudden it came up and

1689
00:57:09,438 --> 00:57:10,300
Kyle: it's just it's, it's like stripecom

1690
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:10,481
Kyle: gorgeous.

1691
00:57:10,501 --> 00:57:11,002
Kyle: You know what I mean.

1692
00:57:11,022 --> 00:57:12,246
Kyle: Like you're like all of a sudden it came up

1693
00:57:12,266 --> 00:57:13,028
Kyle: and it's just it's, it's like stripecom

1694
00:57:13,048 --> 00:57:13,790
Kyle: gorgeous you know what I mean.

1695
00:57:13,831 --> 00:57:14,974
Kyle: Like you're like wait a second.

1696
00:57:15,014 --> 00:57:15,395
Kyle: Where did you?

1697
00:57:15,756 --> 00:57:16,879
Kyle: How did you get to this version?

1698
00:57:17,019 --> 00:57:20,696
Ben: so that's because of our head of creative,

1699
00:57:21,318 --> 00:57:23,403
Ben: aaron, and our head of product design, rye,

1700
00:57:23,965 --> 00:57:26,691
Ben: who started working with contra on a

1701
00:57:26,751 --> 00:57:30,758
Ben: freelance basis, um, and ultimately came on

1702
00:57:30,818 --> 00:57:32,721
Ben: full-time right around the same time.

1703
00:57:33,162 --> 00:57:34,985
Ben: And they are the creative geniuses.

1704
00:57:35,230 --> 00:57:38,338
Ben: But I will say that I've always pushed for

1705
00:57:38,438 --> 00:57:41,211
Ben: us to do brand and design first, and from

1706
00:57:41,231 --> 00:57:43,278
Ben: day one we started with brand and we

1707
00:57:43,298 --> 00:57:44,100
Ben: started with product design.

1708
00:57:44,150 --> 00:57:45,456
Ben: We never started with engineering.

1709
00:57:46,010 --> 00:57:48,197
Ben: Thank God Gaius joined, because without

1710
00:57:48,237 --> 00:57:51,232
Ben: that engineering muscle doesn't matter how

1711
00:57:51,333 --> 00:57:53,098
Ben: well it's designed or like how good the

1712
00:57:53,138 --> 00:57:54,952
Ben: brand is, but I think when you have the

1713
00:57:55,033 --> 00:57:56,997
Ben: three together, that's when people pay

1714
00:57:57,037 --> 00:58:00,412
Ben: attention I totally, and I've had, I've had

1715
00:58:00,452 --> 00:58:02,281
Ben: so many people in my early, I think that

1716
00:58:02,381 --> 00:58:04,250
Ben: old like just ship it fast, ship it ugly.

1717
00:58:04,751 --> 00:58:06,533
Kyle: I don't think that counts anymore.

1718
00:58:06,573 --> 00:58:11,360
Kyle: I think we're all so used to to slack and

1719
00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:15,245
Kyle: airbnb and these like really highly, you

1720
00:58:15,305 --> 00:58:19,291
Kyle: know, like these, um, these interfaces that

1721
00:58:19,331 --> 00:58:22,621
Kyle: have been scrutinized to a to a, t, and

1722
00:58:22,802 --> 00:58:24,567
Kyle: unless you're building something, I mean

1723
00:58:25,048 --> 00:58:27,576
Kyle: completely mind-blowing now, that no one

1724
00:58:27,597 --> 00:58:30,466
Kyle: has ever seen before, I, I don't, I, and so

1725
00:58:30,506 --> 00:58:32,194
Kyle: that's what we did is, basically, I think

1726
00:58:32,255 --> 00:58:34,351
Kyle: we shipped something and it was only like

1727
00:58:34,612 --> 00:58:36,537
Kyle: four months in, but even I was getting that

1728
00:58:36,577 --> 00:58:37,981
Kyle: like this should have been, like shipped a

1729
00:58:38,090 --> 00:58:38,612
Kyle: while ago.

1730
00:58:38,692 --> 00:58:40,757
Kyle: Like you know, this is way more than it

1731
00:58:40,798 --> 00:58:41,239
Kyle: needs to be.

1732
00:58:41,299 --> 00:58:42,061
Kyle: I'm like no, no, no, no.

1733
00:58:42,081 --> 00:58:45,975
Kyle: What I want is someone to say this is, this

1734
00:58:46,035 --> 00:58:47,997
Kyle: is much further along than it should be

1735
00:58:48,057 --> 00:58:49,940
Kyle: right now, and that makes your brain go

1736
00:58:50,741 --> 00:58:53,144
Kyle: interesting you know, one thousand percent.

1737
00:58:53,645 --> 00:58:56,033
Ben: Um, I love this conversation, by the way.

1738
00:58:56,474 --> 00:58:59,120
Kyle: Um, I actually have to hop yeah, all good,

1739
00:58:59,300 --> 00:59:00,690
Kyle: but thank you for the time, and this is.

1740
00:59:00,730 --> 00:59:02,294
Kyle: This is so great okay awesome.

1741
00:59:02,314 --> 00:59:03,177
Ben: Well, kyle, thanks again.

1742
00:59:03,197 --> 00:59:03,397
Ben: Man.

1743
00:59:03,437 --> 00:59:05,282
Ben: This is, this has been great totally thank

1744
00:59:05,302 --> 00:59:05,402
Ben: you.